Ryanair Jeppesen's Out of Date
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Ryanair Jeppesen's Out of Date
Reliably informed that a member of the IAA found on arrival at an aircraft in Skavasta that the Nav. Bag on not just one of the aircraft based there were out of date. In one case upto 24 updates out of date. Is this another form of cost cutting.
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The rumour is somehow true. They also raided a plane in Denmark. However, the IAA didn't ground the fleet......
We have just got a new Jeppesen system. The system is fantastic!!! We only have to carry the plates we need - alternates at the commanders discretion - there is no (0) plates onboard the aircraft.
In case of a medical emergency or enroute technical problems, we just tell ATC, that we havn't got any plates, and they will solve the problem for us.....isn't that smart! - cost saving...
We have just got a new Jeppesen system. The system is fantastic!!! We only have to carry the plates we need - alternates at the commanders discretion - there is no (0) plates onboard the aircraft.
In case of a medical emergency or enroute technical problems, we just tell ATC, that we havn't got any plates, and they will solve the problem for us.....isn't that smart! - cost saving...
Ut Sementem Feeceris
So if you have an engine or serious cabin fire and need to land at the NEAREST airport, what do you do if that airport does not have radar, or is a Cat B field which needs a little more attention.
I thought that a set of Jepps actually constituted part of the Ops Manual and was therefore required to be carried. I think expecting ATC to supply all the info puts an undue pressure on them - and what if the communication is misunderstood in any way?
Would you feel comfortable flying an instrument approach, possibly in marginal weather without plates - particularly if you have an inflight emergency in progress? Pretty sure I wouldn't!
What does the UK CAA think about this (if it's true). It doesn't put RYR at the top of my list of chosen carriers.
A4
]
I thought that a set of Jepps actually constituted part of the Ops Manual and was therefore required to be carried. I think expecting ATC to supply all the info puts an undue pressure on them - and what if the communication is misunderstood in any way?
Would you feel comfortable flying an instrument approach, possibly in marginal weather without plates - particularly if you have an inflight emergency in progress? Pretty sure I wouldn't!
What does the UK CAA think about this (if it's true). It doesn't put RYR at the top of my list of chosen carriers.
A4
]
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THERE ARE PLATES ON BOARD IN A NAV BAG FOR ANY DESTIONATIONS WE DONT FLY TO. ALL CREWS MUST TAKE PLATES FOR ANY AIRPORTS WE FLY IN TO. ITS NO BIG DEAL, JUST IF YOU HAVE TO DIVERT THE PLATES ARE CLOSE AT HAND IF ITS A RYR DESTINATION AND IF NOT TAKE THEM OUT OF THE NAV BAG.
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IOD nobody is disputing that we don't carry plates, all I'm saying is that is doesn't matter how many plates or nav bags that we carry as they are no good if they are out of date. The reason for them being updated is that something of importance on the plate has changed.
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I KNOW THAT AND THAT IS WHY EVERY MONTH ON THE SAME NIGHT EVERY BAG WILL BE UPDATED ON ALL 72 AIRCRAFTS IN EVERY BASE. ITS A GOOD NEW SYSTEM THAT FOR ONCE IN ALONG TIME ON THE 738 THAT YOU WILL HAVE UPDATED PLATES. ALL PLATES YOU TAKE FROM OPS ARE UP TO DATE AS THE JEPPY DISC COMES IN EVERY 2 WEEKS AND THAT WONT CHANGE. ALL IN ALL THIS WILL BE MUCH BETTER SYSTEM. IT JUST MEANS THE FO MUST TAKE WITH HIM ALOT MORE PLATES IN HIS TRIP KIT.
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Just to answer A4's last question, Ryanair is an Irish airline. UK CAA has no jurisdiction.
Yes, I know that Stansted is their biggest base. This is the whacky Euro-world we live in.
Yes, I know that Stansted is their biggest base. This is the whacky Euro-world we live in.
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A few points:
1 Jepps are updated weekly so should be changed weekly.
2 If the IAA Ops Inspector found Jepps significantly out of date I would have thought that his boss should be asking him why he allowed a flight to depart with out of date charts. I would find it hard to believe that the IAA condoned such an action.
3 Photo copies of letdown charts are normally considered illegal as they are a breach of copyright and also not subject to ammendment. So does the airline concerned have 2 sets of letdown charts for each airlield or only one? UK AOC operators require a chart for each pilot.
1 Jepps are updated weekly so should be changed weekly.
2 If the IAA Ops Inspector found Jepps significantly out of date I would have thought that his boss should be asking him why he allowed a flight to depart with out of date charts. I would find it hard to believe that the IAA condoned such an action.
3 Photo copies of letdown charts are normally considered illegal as they are a breach of copyright and also not subject to ammendment. So does the airline concerned have 2 sets of letdown charts for each airlield or only one? UK AOC operators require a chart for each pilot.
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SORRY A4.
The IAA and jep have given the ok for the new system so i doubt there is anything wrong with it. The new system has taken so long to come in as we were waiting for the IAA to give the ok . If they had had said yes weeks ago we wouldnt be talking about now. At the end of the day if MR W B in stn had his staff doing the updates there would never had been a problem. Cost cutting cost the company a huge problem all because the ops staff in DUB were not being listen to . Silly people
The IAA and jep have given the ok for the new system so i doubt there is anything wrong with it. The new system has taken so long to come in as we were waiting for the IAA to give the ok . If they had had said yes weeks ago we wouldnt be talking about now. At the end of the day if MR W B in stn had his staff doing the updates there would never had been a problem. Cost cutting cost the company a huge problem all because the ops staff in DUB were not being listen to . Silly people
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THIS IS FACT
The IAA asked the UK CAA to assist in auditing FR's aircraft at STN, including those operated by Buzz. Said CAA man found nothing wrong with Buzz's aircraft, and I believe he checked at least 3 out of 6. He did however strongly voice his concern about the state of FR's own aircraft he checked. It would appear that most of FR's aircraft were at least 10 amendments out of date. I ask the question. If the IAA allow Irish aircraft to operate in this state, why do pilots despatch knowing the Jepps are so out of date?
Although FR has a new system, which in itself seems to be flawed, the IAA didn't approve it prior to FR introducing it. The UK CAA has insisted that Buzz (100% owned by FR) does not introduce the new FR system until they (CAA) are fully happy that the system will work. They too have their doubts about what is essentially a cost cutting excercise.
For a crew to depart NOT having plates for alternates, at Captain's discretion or not, is asking for trouble. How can a crew determine a safe approach with zero data to check on i.e. allowable runway length, obstacles, MSA, etc etc. You can't tell me that ATC will provide all this information via the radio?
The IAA came extremely close to grounding FR's entire fleet on Thursday and have not yet put this subject to bed. More and more ramp checks of FR aircraft are taking place around Europe on an almost daily basis.
Are FR a safe carrier? Probably but an accident is waiting to happen, god forbid.
How many Buzz pilots out there would not have a full trip kit and more besides before they set off?
How many FR pilots out there would not have a full trip kit and more besides before they set off?
I bet the answers are somewhat different..........
The IAA asked the UK CAA to assist in auditing FR's aircraft at STN, including those operated by Buzz. Said CAA man found nothing wrong with Buzz's aircraft, and I believe he checked at least 3 out of 6. He did however strongly voice his concern about the state of FR's own aircraft he checked. It would appear that most of FR's aircraft were at least 10 amendments out of date. I ask the question. If the IAA allow Irish aircraft to operate in this state, why do pilots despatch knowing the Jepps are so out of date?
Although FR has a new system, which in itself seems to be flawed, the IAA didn't approve it prior to FR introducing it. The UK CAA has insisted that Buzz (100% owned by FR) does not introduce the new FR system until they (CAA) are fully happy that the system will work. They too have their doubts about what is essentially a cost cutting excercise.
For a crew to depart NOT having plates for alternates, at Captain's discretion or not, is asking for trouble. How can a crew determine a safe approach with zero data to check on i.e. allowable runway length, obstacles, MSA, etc etc. You can't tell me that ATC will provide all this information via the radio?
The IAA came extremely close to grounding FR's entire fleet on Thursday and have not yet put this subject to bed. More and more ramp checks of FR aircraft are taking place around Europe on an almost daily basis.
Are FR a safe carrier? Probably but an accident is waiting to happen, god forbid.
How many Buzz pilots out there would not have a full trip kit and more besides before they set off?
How many FR pilots out there would not have a full trip kit and more besides before they set off?
I bet the answers are somewhat different..........
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Sky 9
The photo copys that Ryanair Use are not illegal as the company has subscribed to the "Jeppveiw" system and all copys are properly licenced to Ryanair and this is stated on the top of each plate.
These plates also have a "check after" that gives the date of the next Jeppveiw disk issue so that the ammendment state can be checked and the plate disgarded if a new plate has been issued.
These plates also have a "check after" that gives the date of the next Jeppveiw disk issue so that the ammendment state can be checked and the plate disgarded if a new plate has been issued.
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The new system introduced is not a cost cutting exercise, it is a huge improvement on what we had before. Remember the jepessen staff flying around with us updating the NAV bags? How many times did any of us check the NAV bag. Never it was not required as the NAV bags were sealed to guarantee that things would not go missing. The new system is very simple and very efficient. We have a sealed Brick customised for RYR by Jepessen for the offroute airports. This brick is sealed and it has a clear date indicating that it is up to date. In each base pilots take with them before the flight all relevant plates required for the flight, including destination and alternates. The plates as they come from Jeppview have a clear date on them stating until when they are valid. We also take a trip kit and we are responsible for making sure that it is up to date with all high and low level charts.
JAR OPS does not require two sets of plates on board an aircraft, nor does the UK CAA. It depends on the OPS manual of each carrier.
The JEPPY is one way of doing things, Aerad, Lufthansa, and KLM have their own internal department printing their own NAVs.
The inspector in Skavsta was not IAA he was from the Swedish Authorities
JP
JAR OPS does not require two sets of plates on board an aircraft, nor does the UK CAA. It depends on the OPS manual of each carrier.
The JEPPY is one way of doing things, Aerad, Lufthansa, and KLM have their own internal department printing their own NAVs.
The inspector in Skavsta was not IAA he was from the Swedish Authorities
JP
You just wonder in this day and age of modern technology why the plates cannot be put on a CD to load into the on-board computer which will display the procedure and/or give a hard copy printout?
Best company I worked for gave all the pilots their own personal issue Jepp which you kept amended yourself - this kept you current with any changes. Only charts on the a/c were low level radnav charts and some of the diversions.
Best company I worked for gave all the pilots their own personal issue Jepp which you kept amended yourself - this kept you current with any changes. Only charts on the a/c were low level radnav charts and some of the diversions.
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Johnpilot I'm afraid you're wrong, the inspector was from the IAA, he had travelled from Cork through Stansted that day. You can sing all you want to about your new "brick" system, but it still doesn't change the fact that the nav bags were(are?) out of date. It doesn't inspire confidence knowing that the IAA have not done anything about it.
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Johnpilot-- Been looking at your posts! You are very obviously a management mole as your pronouncements are heavily biased! The system now is so fraught with potential mistakes it seems unlikely to be adopted by any other major carrier! I can just visualise a situation with a fuel critical diversion and the discovery that the one suitable airfield just happens to be the set of charts that was left behind! On top of this we now have an FMC database that includes so many unusable airports that it has become far less of an assistant in a time of need! Try selecting APTS when in any of the larger map scales and you will see what I mean!