RYANAIR pilots breaking 250kIAS limit OCAS
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DEFPOTEC - ..Or the quicker they arrive in someone else's sector (esp. on such a short flight!)
If you think that 300kts @ 4000' on the way to the field (in not uncongested airspace) is 'how a jet should be flown' then you've probably more experience flying around TX and the US than in the UK
Or we're talking about a different kind of 'jet'..
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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...
If you think that 300kts @ 4000' on the way to the field (in not uncongested airspace) is 'how a jet should be flown' then you've probably more experience flying around TX and the US than in the UK
Or we're talking about a different kind of 'jet'..
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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...
Guest
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Isn't anybody listening. Guess not, then I will shout it:
FLYING FASTER THAN 250KTS BELOW 10,000' IN UNCONTROLLED AIRSPACE IS ILLEAGAL IN THE UK!
It doesn't matter what ATC say, they do not have the mandate to allow you to go faster outside of controlled airspace.
[This message has been edited by autobrakemedium (edited 13 March 2001).]
FLYING FASTER THAN 250KTS BELOW 10,000' IN UNCONTROLLED AIRSPACE IS ILLEAGAL IN THE UK!
It doesn't matter what ATC say, they do not have the mandate to allow you to go faster outside of controlled airspace.
[This message has been edited by autobrakemedium (edited 13 March 2001).]
Guest
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I believe Ryanair also have a '250 below 10' company rule regardless of whether you are given 'free-speed' or not. It was brought in to help prevent level busts, but correct me if I am wrong: Surely a 250kt climb will give you a greater rate of climb, increasing your chance of a level bust!
Guest
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Belting around at warp 9 is a bit of a laugh. But the effects of bird strike (most common below FL100) have to be considered. Also turbulence for cabin comfort and safety.
BA do a cracking video on rushed approaches in which they analize the time that is really saved against the safety aspect.
BA do a cracking video on rushed approaches in which they analize the time that is really saved against the safety aspect.
Guest
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It doesn,t take many go-arounds to negate the benefits of barbers pole below 10k as the crew of the Ryanair that had to go-around at PIK yesterday due to 'unstable approach' would tell you
Seriously - to g/a when you are not happy is good airmanship. To then admit on the r/t that it was due to an unstable approach is not only good airmanship, it shows humility. Sir, I salute you!
The Americans can teach us a thing or 2 about speed below 10 - 250 max, and after all, they invented the game.
Seriously - to g/a when you are not happy is good airmanship. To then admit on the r/t that it was due to an unstable approach is not only good airmanship, it shows humility. Sir, I salute you!
The Americans can teach us a thing or 2 about speed below 10 - 250 max, and after all, they invented the game.
Guest
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sofsonteaser - that's Controlled Airspace..big difference ie. it's legal. That is where speeding up to remove yourself from a busy TMA can be a good move.
In the Open FIR, well, that's what this thread is about!
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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...
In the Open FIR, well, that's what this thread is about!
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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...
Guest
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To the jet pilots who wish to exceed 250Kts in uncontrolled airspace ...
How would you feel if I flew right through the middle of your ILS approach in my PA28 when you were on final?
I believe that this would display the same level of airmanship as speeding in uncontrolled airspace where there is a plethora of light a/c, many without transponder or radio.
Please be PROFESSIONAL and follow the law and give the rest of us (including your pax) a break.
How would you feel if I flew right through the middle of your ILS approach in my PA28 when you were on final?
I believe that this would display the same level of airmanship as speeding in uncontrolled airspace where there is a plethora of light a/c, many without transponder or radio.
Please be PROFESSIONAL and follow the law and give the rest of us (including your pax) a break.
Guest
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Hmmm.. not quite the same thing, methinks! That would be like comparing someone who speeds on an open road to someone who deliberately runs a Red Light...but point taken.
Both illegal, but is one more or less dangerous than the other? And to who? Discuss in less than 500 words..
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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...
Both illegal, but is one more or less dangerous than the other? And to who? Discuss in less than 500 words..
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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...
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Affirmbrest
Wouldn't like to offer an opinion on which is the most dangerous - I doubt if there are enough instances resulting in bangs to be statistically significant, so the "danger" represented is a subjective judgement call and I'll defer to your greater experience and the implied view from your posting that ILS penetration is the greater evil.
I can only do about 120kts so speeding isn't a concern for me, but suffice it to say that I have accrued a few hundred hours and have NEVER transgressed and entered controlled airspace without a clearance, so I take air safety very seriously.
From experience I have learned that traffic moving at 250Kts arrives very quickly and the thought of heavy metal thundering around uncontrolled airspace at over 300Kts makes me a little nervous!
Wouldn't like to offer an opinion on which is the most dangerous - I doubt if there are enough instances resulting in bangs to be statistically significant, so the "danger" represented is a subjective judgement call and I'll defer to your greater experience and the implied view from your posting that ILS penetration is the greater evil.
I can only do about 120kts so speeding isn't a concern for me, but suffice it to say that I have accrued a few hundred hours and have NEVER transgressed and entered controlled airspace without a clearance, so I take air safety very seriously.
From experience I have learned that traffic moving at 250Kts arrives very quickly and the thought of heavy metal thundering around uncontrolled airspace at over 300Kts makes me a little nervous!
Guest
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Stay logical,
1. What's the time gain on approach when at 330 kts at 20 nm or at 250 Kts. Personally i think is't not worth it for that reason.
I do fly high speed approaches from time to time simply because it's a true joy.
2.On the way out it should most definitely be no problem if allowed by ATC AND it even saves fuel if tyou do fly above 250 kts below 100.
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Smooth Trimmer
1. What's the time gain on approach when at 330 kts at 20 nm or at 250 Kts. Personally i think is't not worth it for that reason.
I do fly high speed approaches from time to time simply because it's a true joy.
2.On the way out it should most definitely be no problem if allowed by ATC AND it even saves fuel if tyou do fly above 250 kts below 100.
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Smooth Trimmer
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Streamline
I agree with 'ya. I have timed the difference (just for fun) and it is only about a minute or so that you can save. Or put another way - you save precisely three fifths of bugger all.:
Also ATC then have to give you a 'longer' vectored approach to fit you in with the traffic in front that you are catching up.
And finally : You will still have to wait for the last pax leaving the bar for the return sector and you will be no doubt be waiting for the damned tug anyway !!!!
But it is good fun though.:
REMEMBER : There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.
I agree with 'ya. I have timed the difference (just for fun) and it is only about a minute or so that you can save. Or put another way - you save precisely three fifths of bugger all.
:Also ATC then have to give you a 'longer' vectored approach to fit you in with the traffic in front that you are catching up.
And finally : You will still have to wait for the last pax leaving the bar for the return sector and you will be no doubt be waiting for the damned tug anyway !!!!
But it is good fun though.
:REMEMBER : There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.
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In recent times it is becoming frustrating to hear the Ryans trying to do their own ATCing in to DUB......Instead of comlying they will either try to tell ATC what they want or just blantantly ignore speed restrctions to get AHEAD of others, especially if behind schedule --- Warp Factor 7 is NOT SAFE !
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DEFPOTEC
Where it is convenient to do so then I can't disagree with you. In this neck of the woods you'll probably get 'No ATC Speed Restriction' in the first response from Centre for 99% of cases. The 1% is when Raw Data is up ahead in his 146
boxmover
As a general rule there is no speed restriction in Class A airspace, except where this is stated in the AIP, on SID charts for example. But where this exists what you say is valid about cancelling the speed. The restrictions which do exist in Class A are for procedure design purposes and not for the 'See and be seen' principle.
The comment on other types of airspace is not actually correct. In Class B airspace there is no restriction (as per Class A) and in Class C there is only a restriction for VFR aircraft. As we only have Class B above FL245 and no Class C at all in the UK, it's probably academic. We can also cancel the speed restriction in Class D where alternative separation can be provided from 'See and be seen' by ATC or where ATC determine no conflict exists.
What you say IS valid for Class E, F & G. ATC have no mandate to relax speed restrictions in those airspace types.
I also think that breach of the regulations would be a civil offence and not a criminal one, but perhaps JP Justice or Flying Lawyer can advise on that !!
Avalon
I guess you must be fluent in Serbo-Croat then !! A few of the crews flying around here have extremely strong Eastern European accents and seem to think that grunting is an acceptable readback of an ATC instruction. Whilst I may need to 'get a life' for pulling them up for a correct readback, I don't intend to let them jeopardise MY licence and hence livelihood. I have no doubt they can fly the aircraft but I do worry that they don't fully understand the airspace or system in which they are flying. As a result you will find that ATC will tend to simplify what we do with such pilots whereas for those we have confidence in we can probably duck and weave a lot more to aid the efficiency of the flight. Risk management I guess 
Having said that, the Irish RYR crews I have met so far all seem like good guys.
AffirmBrest
Less than 500 words eh ?? Oh well bang goes the idea of posting the text of AIC Yellow 291 or ICAO Annex 11 then !!
Smooth Approach
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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by 10W (edited 13 March 2001).]
Where it is convenient to do so then I can't disagree with you. In this neck of the woods you'll probably get 'No ATC Speed Restriction' in the first response from Centre for 99% of cases. The 1% is when Raw Data is up ahead in his 146
boxmover
As a general rule there is no speed restriction in Class A airspace, except where this is stated in the AIP, on SID charts for example. But where this exists what you say is valid about cancelling the speed. The restrictions which do exist in Class A are for procedure design purposes and not for the 'See and be seen' principle.
The comment on other types of airspace is not actually correct. In Class B airspace there is no restriction (as per Class A) and in Class C there is only a restriction for VFR aircraft. As we only have Class B above FL245 and no Class C at all in the UK, it's probably academic. We can also cancel the speed restriction in Class D where alternative separation can be provided from 'See and be seen' by ATC or where ATC determine no conflict exists.
What you say IS valid for Class E, F & G. ATC have no mandate to relax speed restrictions in those airspace types.
I also think that breach of the regulations would be a civil offence and not a criminal one, but perhaps JP Justice or Flying Lawyer can advise on that !!
Avalon
I guess you must be fluent in Serbo-Croat then !!
A few of the crews flying around here have extremely strong Eastern European accents and seem to think that grunting is an acceptable readback of an ATC instruction. Whilst I may need to 'get a life' for pulling them up for a correct readback, I don't intend to let them jeopardise MY licence and hence livelihood. I have no doubt they can fly the aircraft but I do worry that they don't fully understand the airspace or system in which they are flying. As a result you will find that ATC will tend to simplify what we do with such pilots whereas for those we have confidence in we can probably duck and weave a lot more to aid the efficiency of the flight. Risk management I guess Having said that, the Irish RYR crews I have met so far all seem like good guys.
AffirmBrest
Less than 500 words eh ?? Oh well bang goes the idea of posting the text of AIC Yellow 291 or ICAO Annex 11 then !!
Smooth Approach
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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by 10W (edited 13 March 2001).]
Guest
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Houston, January, 9th 1998, B-727 Delta Airlines flight 1783.
During initial climb this 727 hits some geeses. Number 1 engine was destroyed, number 2 badly damage, right wing was badly damage as well. Is "no speed restriction" out of Houston a contributing factors to the level of damage this aircraft suffered ?
During initial climb this 727 hits some geeses. Number 1 engine was destroyed, number 2 badly damage, right wing was badly damage as well. Is "no speed restriction" out of Houston a contributing factors to the level of damage this aircraft suffered ?
Guest
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Hey 10W, talking about the 146 breed, they do act as speed limiter, but only in the climb / cruise mode. Descend it does pretty well, as with all that drag, well, I've seen 250 at 4 miles (ok weight was only about 38T). What other aircraft can give you that
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... cut my wings and I'll die ...
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... cut my wings and I'll die ...
Guest
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Bird strike hazard is a valid point.
Does anybody know if bird concentration drops when OAT is below 0°c .
So we can fly high speed if OAT is below 0° C.
By the way, in my company w'e are not allowed to fly in uncontrolled airspace.
Common sence I would say,
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Smooth Trimmer
[This message has been edited by Streamline (edited 13 March 2001).]
Does anybody know if bird concentration drops when OAT is below 0°c .
So we can fly high speed if OAT is below 0° C.
By the way, in my company w'e are not allowed to fly in uncontrolled airspace.
Common sence I would say,
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Smooth Trimmer
[This message has been edited by Streamline (edited 13 March 2001).]
