Emirates emergency landing in JNB
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Dear Cap 56
I have not commented on this forum previously because I do not have access to the facts even though I am a lot closer to them than you are.
What i am going to say now that you have drawn me into this arena is that you are the most despicable kind of human being that exists.
You have lowered yourself to trying to judge fellow aviators on a public forum with half truths and inuendo. I dont actually care whether you are right or wrong. What i care about is the way you are attacking two of my colleagues who apparently have paid a very high price for following company direction.
The issue here is the process not the person. Even if it can be proven beyond any doubt that the PF made an unexplainable error. He is still a product of the system that trained and evaluated him. It is the system that is at fault, not the individual.
It is because of people like you, who will willlingly slander a colleague for the simple purpose of furthering their own percieved position or status, that we have the kind of culture that exists here.
You write anonymously, proclaiming to possess skills and judgement levels beyond those of everyone who cares to disagree with you. Let me say that few of us possess the ability to calmy calculate all your so called "cultural values" while dealing with an emergency of this magnitude. Error will inevitably be made. It is what you do after the error has been made that establishes who you are. These guys did good.
Evidence suggests that they were taught an incorrect rotation technique, so they cannot be blamed for that. From that point they managed to get a seriously disabled jet on the ground safely with no-one injured. That is what they are paid to do.
It is easy enough for you in your ivory tower, with the benefit of hindsight and no pressure, to pick holes in their decisions. I doubt if many people would have done a better job. I certainly don't believe that I would. For the record I dont believe that you would have either, despite your self proclaimed expertise.
EK has some serious issues to deal with. They may never get them sorted. But I am here to say that it is a better airline for not having you in it.
The Rev
I have not commented on this forum previously because I do not have access to the facts even though I am a lot closer to them than you are.
What i am going to say now that you have drawn me into this arena is that you are the most despicable kind of human being that exists.
You have lowered yourself to trying to judge fellow aviators on a public forum with half truths and inuendo. I dont actually care whether you are right or wrong. What i care about is the way you are attacking two of my colleagues who apparently have paid a very high price for following company direction.
The issue here is the process not the person. Even if it can be proven beyond any doubt that the PF made an unexplainable error. He is still a product of the system that trained and evaluated him. It is the system that is at fault, not the individual.
It is because of people like you, who will willlingly slander a colleague for the simple purpose of furthering their own percieved position or status, that we have the kind of culture that exists here.
You write anonymously, proclaiming to possess skills and judgement levels beyond those of everyone who cares to disagree with you. Let me say that few of us possess the ability to calmy calculate all your so called "cultural values" while dealing with an emergency of this magnitude. Error will inevitably be made. It is what you do after the error has been made that establishes who you are. These guys did good.
Evidence suggests that they were taught an incorrect rotation technique, so they cannot be blamed for that. From that point they managed to get a seriously disabled jet on the ground safely with no-one injured. That is what they are paid to do.
It is easy enough for you in your ivory tower, with the benefit of hindsight and no pressure, to pick holes in their decisions. I doubt if many people would have done a better job. I certainly don't believe that I would. For the record I dont believe that you would have either, despite your self proclaimed expertise.
EK has some serious issues to deal with. They may never get them sorted. But I am here to say that it is a better airline for not having you in it.
The Rev
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Emirates emergency landing JNB
Reverend Doctor Doug
I think that your summary of Cap 56's personality is spot on.
I too,beleive that the crew did a good job in getting the a/c safely back on the ground,regardless of how they ended up in the pickle in the first place.
Thank you for a well thought out reply.
I think that your summary of Cap 56's personality is spot on.
I too,beleive that the crew did a good job in getting the a/c safely back on the ground,regardless of how they ended up in the pickle in the first place.
Thank you for a well thought out reply.
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Cap 56,
Why are you asking questions about runways? Earlier in the thread you told me you were privvy to all sorts of information and were in close liasons with the CAAs of most planets in the known universe; before subsequently deciding to delete those comments. I thought you were the font of all knowledge and had a formula up your sleeve that could calculate with absolute certainty exactly what should be done under any circumstances:
Chances of Correct Action = (What happened + Hindsight) * 1.001 (Actual Credibility as an operator / Bullsh*t Factor to Show Perceived self importance)
As your PHd in Mathematics will tell you; Even if 10 weeks after the event you have actually worked out the best path to follow in any particular incident, dividing a zero by a big number in the second bracket comes out with a bigger zero and if you then multiply the first bracket by that zero you will still sc*ew up. Maybe that might have a bearing on why you left EK.
Before you start accusing me of a personal attack, even though it is, let me say that I am only commenting on the information that you have provided everyone about yourself during the course of this thread. It doesn't matter how much you slag EK off or show to the PPrune public what a superior operator you think you are; you can't have your job back!
Cerberus
Why are you asking questions about runways? Earlier in the thread you told me you were privvy to all sorts of information and were in close liasons with the CAAs of most planets in the known universe; before subsequently deciding to delete those comments. I thought you were the font of all knowledge and had a formula up your sleeve that could calculate with absolute certainty exactly what should be done under any circumstances:
Chances of Correct Action = (What happened + Hindsight) * 1.001 (Actual Credibility as an operator / Bullsh*t Factor to Show Perceived self importance)
As your PHd in Mathematics will tell you; Even if 10 weeks after the event you have actually worked out the best path to follow in any particular incident, dividing a zero by a big number in the second bracket comes out with a bigger zero and if you then multiply the first bracket by that zero you will still sc*ew up. Maybe that might have a bearing on why you left EK.
Before you start accusing me of a personal attack, even though it is, let me say that I am only commenting on the information that you have provided everyone about yourself during the course of this thread. It doesn't matter how much you slag EK off or show to the PPrune public what a superior operator you think you are; you can't have your job back!
Cerberus
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What i care about is the way you are attacking two of my colleagues who apparently have paid a very high price for following company direction.
I criticize the EK training department and consequently but “indirectly” the crew.
Nothing will change within EK without pressure from outside; pilots are simply too scared to speak up.
The pilots have been fired and if you think they had any chance to be treated correctly then you are having an illusion. I have advised them to get out of the country as quickly as possible.
I do have a whole library here behind me but I have not opened a single book so far.
The fact that I do have this library speaks for itself. So this time I will give you some info from them.
It is known that professionals; doctors, pilots and others that need to make decisions based upon many parameters tend to revert to a heuristic thinking process, whereby, in most cases they get the right diagnosis but sometimes they get it completely wrong. Therefore it is advised that they check their initial thinking process trough via an algorithmic model in order to get their facts right.
In other words:
1. Heuristic model
Capt thinks A,B,C + F/O thinks C, D, E = decision based on A,B,C,D,E
2. Trained by both capt and f/o) algorithmic model A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H
Capt thinks A,B,C,E,F,G,H + F/O suggests to capt “I think you forgot D”
If you apply this also in daily operation it will become second nature you may also elect to put in the QRH. Human performance declines under stress, this model fills the gaps. It may be subject to improvement. It suposes that one is familiar with the basics of aviation.
The model that I proposed is not something that I have invented overnight; it was used as a standard model, incorporated in the FOM. It does not need complicated calculations but highlights the importance of all factors. It reduces stress and gets the whole crew and environment involved. I can assure you that it received a lot of criticism but in the end it proved it’s value and was accepted.
While I was with EK I was in contact with the specialist from Boeing on human factors who was working in the University of Delft on cockpits of the future on a B 777 platform called the SIMONA project.
EK was starting to fly mixed types, Airbus and Boeing and the man was prepared to get involved with a study on SOP in such an environment.
EK, “read the GMFO” refused for obvious reasons.
What happened in reality on this read is that I have applied my model while I am not even qualified on the aircraft. What this means in practical terms is the following.
If a complete layman would have been sitting on that flight deck with the algorithm in his hands and worked trough it, like if it was a checklist and challenge the captain with every decision he has made, would they have had a better situation awareness or not and taken another decision?
In the end my posts did exactly that and the data came on the table. Take it for what it is worth but I may have done you guys a big favour.
Perception is not always reality. This crew did not land on the longest runway available with known brakes and flap problems and were very lucky to walk away from it alive. Their future lives may well be traumatised till the end and those remaining in EK should be grateful if the system improves.
Unfortunately that’s the way things are.
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Good post Rev.
To focus mainly on the pilots is to turn back the clock and ignore the evidence of countless other accident and incident investigations where other factors, coincident or otherwise, played their part.
Human factors was once the department which would initiate an indepth investigate by professionally qualified personnel that would address the problems in training if necessary as well as looking deeper into the effects of commercial pressures, company culture and other mitigating factors which have played their part in an incidence.
My point earlier in this thread about the difference in human factors and CRM is that the former has been overtaken by the latter; where anyone with an interest, who has read as little as HPL and The Naked Pilot, volunteers to be a company CRM expert and in the process we have lost the ability to investigate fully such circumstances and recommend any changes necessary to avoid it happening again.
Sacking the pilots does not deal with the problem and serves only to reinforce the message that we work within a 'blame culture' and whilst to 'err is human...don't get caught'.
These were good professional pilots with many hours and years in the job. Others have also been sacked or demoted having never been given the opportunity to see the 'official' report or been given the chance to defend themselves.
We could learn valuable lessons from this incident or bury it in the sand. If we bury it, which seems likely, the unfortunate truth is that will be revisting this forum with other incidents in the future.
To focus mainly on the pilots is to turn back the clock and ignore the evidence of countless other accident and incident investigations where other factors, coincident or otherwise, played their part.
Human factors was once the department which would initiate an indepth investigate by professionally qualified personnel that would address the problems in training if necessary as well as looking deeper into the effects of commercial pressures, company culture and other mitigating factors which have played their part in an incidence.
My point earlier in this thread about the difference in human factors and CRM is that the former has been overtaken by the latter; where anyone with an interest, who has read as little as HPL and The Naked Pilot, volunteers to be a company CRM expert and in the process we have lost the ability to investigate fully such circumstances and recommend any changes necessary to avoid it happening again.
Sacking the pilots does not deal with the problem and serves only to reinforce the message that we work within a 'blame culture' and whilst to 'err is human...don't get caught'.
These were good professional pilots with many hours and years in the job. Others have also been sacked or demoted having never been given the opportunity to see the 'official' report or been given the chance to defend themselves.
We could learn valuable lessons from this incident or bury it in the sand. If we bury it, which seems likely, the unfortunate truth is that will be revisting this forum with other incidents in the future.
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Reverend DoctorDoug
Iwas hoping that your well written piece would see the end of CRAP 56,but,alas...this wasn't to be the case.With Laymen now flying the aircraft and crew working their way through the alphabet before possibly using the QRH,your efforts to enlighten him have been in vain.It isn't even funny anymore and in fact i'm starting to find his efforts of keeping this thread alive by throwing oil onto the fire,insulting.Insulting to not only the crew who were sacked but to all the other decent and professional guys( and girls) out there.To everyone who reads this,please let's do all ouselves a favour.Let Crap 56 have the last word once and for all and just ignore him.Leave him alone in his own little world..............wherever that may be!
Iwas hoping that your well written piece would see the end of CRAP 56,but,alas...this wasn't to be the case.With Laymen now flying the aircraft and crew working their way through the alphabet before possibly using the QRH,your efforts to enlighten him have been in vain.It isn't even funny anymore and in fact i'm starting to find his efforts of keeping this thread alive by throwing oil onto the fire,insulting.Insulting to not only the crew who were sacked but to all the other decent and professional guys( and girls) out there.To everyone who reads this,please let's do all ouselves a favour.Let Crap 56 have the last word once and for all and just ignore him.Leave him alone in his own little world..............wherever that may be!
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BYMONEK
Your emotions are getting hold of you once more. I never stated that QRH should be discarded.
I am only stating what the QRH states itself; “QRH cannot always deal with all problems definitely not in case of multiple failures. In this case it’s up to the crew to use sound judgement.”
Believe me that you can teach a 16 year old how to fly a modern airliner under normal conditions pretty quickly. Managing abnormal situations is beyond his reach.
You can be sure that in the labs were future cockpits are designed or even omitted the algorithms I talked about are being tested out. I know for a fact that they are.
The more we pilots srew up the faster they will get rid of us.
The next step will not be that a layman flies the plane; there will be no pilot whatsoever!
Your emotions are getting hold of you once more. I never stated that QRH should be discarded.
I am only stating what the QRH states itself; “QRH cannot always deal with all problems definitely not in case of multiple failures. In this case it’s up to the crew to use sound judgement.”
Believe me that you can teach a 16 year old how to fly a modern airliner under normal conditions pretty quickly. Managing abnormal situations is beyond his reach.
You can be sure that in the labs were future cockpits are designed or even omitted the algorithms I talked about are being tested out. I know for a fact that they are.
The more we pilots srew up the faster they will get rid of us.
The next step will not be that a layman flies the plane; there will be no pilot whatsoever!
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Airbus has already put you in a cocoon as far as the flight envelope is concerned.
Next step may well be an electronic checklist that is able to handle multiple failures as well were you as a pilot will be actively guided trough an algorithm. The industry will put you in a straight-jacked.
This kind of software already exists in the medical field.
You guys may be laughing but in the penthouse of the EK corporate building they may be laughing with you. Maybe a little to soon but nevertheless….
Next step may well be an electronic checklist that is able to handle multiple failures as well were you as a pilot will be actively guided trough an algorithm. The industry will put you in a straight-jacked.
This kind of software already exists in the medical field.
You guys may be laughing but in the penthouse of the EK corporate building they may be laughing with you. Maybe a little to soon but nevertheless….
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White Knight
If you have read one of the recent issues of Flight International you will have seen that recently a test flight has taken place in order to certify an a plane, without pilots to be integrated in the normal ATC environment.
dungfunnel
You are right, lets just hope that those that consider moving to EK will think very carefully and realise that the airlines in Europe they work for are not so bad after all.
Airlines in Europe should really make a case against the unfair competion from this goverment sponsered airline that does not respect the basic human rights.
If you have read one of the recent issues of Flight International you will have seen that recently a test flight has taken place in order to certify an a plane, without pilots to be integrated in the normal ATC environment.
dungfunnel
You are right, lets just hope that those that consider moving to EK will think very carefully and realise that the airlines in Europe they work for are not so bad after all.
Airlines in Europe should really make a case against the unfair competion from this goverment sponsered airline that does not respect the basic human rights.
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Another post deleted for asking Cap56 a few too many pointed questions, Mr Moderator?
SO I'll ask one of them again. Did you serve your contractural three month's notice when you 'resigned'from EK, Cap56, or were you 'allowed' to depart immediately with absolutely no notice at all?
As Alice would say, 'curiouser and curiouser'...
SO I'll ask one of them again. Did you serve your contractural three month's notice when you 'resigned'from EK, Cap56, or were you 'allowed' to depart immediately with absolutely no notice at all?
As Alice would say, 'curiouser and curiouser'...
Rev, if you really think that cap 56 is
"you are the most despicable kind of human being that exists. "
You really have led a very sheltered life indeed. I can assure you that he is not.
"you are the most despicable kind of human being that exists. "
You really have led a very sheltered life indeed. I can assure you that he is not.
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Cap 56,
I recently finished recurrent and we were told that the crew had filed the appeal, and that they were on non flight pay status( paid to sit at home) until the appeal is heard and the decision is announced. Your guess is as good as mine as to the outcome. I would like to think that common sense will prevail and they will be reinstated, but this is after all Emirates. So it will be a surprise to all because you never know what decisions will be made. This was mostly a training and company philosophy problem. The head of flight ops is gone, and the head of training has been demoted. The pilots have paid enough of a price to this point. The crew, along with every pilot at Emirates, and the pilots who participate in forums like pprune, have used this as a great learning tool. Just look at the number of pages on this thread, and the debate it has caused. We have all learned something from this. As big as Emirates is on the CRM program, is'nt learning the main goal? It is Emirate's time to shine. They will either reinstate the crew knowing that we are all smarter from this or they will fire them, telling us all that management only cares about saving face, at the expense of the crew. We tried to blame Airbus and that did not work, so the crew is all that is left . Time will tell!
Regards,
330 Man
I recently finished recurrent and we were told that the crew had filed the appeal, and that they were on non flight pay status( paid to sit at home) until the appeal is heard and the decision is announced. Your guess is as good as mine as to the outcome. I would like to think that common sense will prevail and they will be reinstated, but this is after all Emirates. So it will be a surprise to all because you never know what decisions will be made. This was mostly a training and company philosophy problem. The head of flight ops is gone, and the head of training has been demoted. The pilots have paid enough of a price to this point. The crew, along with every pilot at Emirates, and the pilots who participate in forums like pprune, have used this as a great learning tool. Just look at the number of pages on this thread, and the debate it has caused. We have all learned something from this. As big as Emirates is on the CRM program, is'nt learning the main goal? It is Emirate's time to shine. They will either reinstate the crew knowing that we are all smarter from this or they will fire them, telling us all that management only cares about saving face, at the expense of the crew. We tried to blame Airbus and that did not work, so the crew is all that is left . Time will tell!
Regards,
330 Man