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Ryanair Cost-cutting?

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Ryanair Cost-cutting?

Old 15th Apr 2004, 10:13
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Airbourne: Wake up and get in the real world. You ask why not leave - see my previous response in this thread - thats why!

Why did I join in the first place because 5 1/2 years ago I was flying turbo props and FR offered me a shiny(not so shiny now) 737-200 job which has led to a 737-800 Command - thats why!

Back then it was about flying not politics. I didnt even know who was in charge of the company when i joined. Why should I!

However that was along time ago and I try and remember those days before having a rant. But this is my career and my livlihood and I am trying to protect it the best I can.

You make it sound oh so easy "just leave" you say.

What BULLS**T grow up!
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 11:56
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Lets not forget the safety issue here. The only people who FR are interested in now are people with 300hrs on a seneca who will pay for their own rating. Put that guy in the flightdeck with a captain with 3500hrs and you have serious lack of experience. In CRM terms it is called cockpit gradient. Anyway in my airline the captain alone must have at least twice the hours of a whole FR flightdeck. I know who I feel safer with!! I think the cliche is "It's only a matter of time".
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 12:30
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In CRM terms it is called cockpit gradient
Now THAT's Cr@p....... what you describe is a very SHALLOW gradient and in any case has nothing whatsoever to do with safety...... Think about it!!

AND since you brought the subject up - a bit of research into the matter will (I'm fairly sure) reveal to you that many apparently very experienced guys have had incidents so the fact that .....
Anyway in my airline the captain alone must have at least twice the hours of a whole FR flightdeck
is:

A - sad

and

B - not neccessarily relevant NOR true since Ryanair DO have some rather experienced guys indeed - both in the right and the wrong seat hehe.......
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 14:06
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It's always the people who say CRM is crap who need it most! If only you would think before opening your mouth. It's the first time I heard experience had no connection with safety. I think you need to do some research. I rest my case.
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 14:20
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vfenext - I most certainly did NOT say CRM is crap.....

I suggest you read both of our posts again S L O W L Y and you may understand better what we both have said!

If english is not your naked tongue you are forgiven but I suggest you don't make this personal.....
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 15:10
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Naked tongue???? It seems you type as fast as you think. A real triumph for FR training.
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 15:21
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Its usually the people who think CRM in some way applies to anonymous web based discussion forums who have not yet grasped that the concept is something beyond being nice to people.

Cheers

WWW
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 16:04
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Hmm... yes I meant "native" of course - thank you for pointing it out with such grace!

My opinion and advice to you still stands, however, and if you re-read your post and think a little harder you'll maybe see where I'm coming from. I can but hope!
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 16:49
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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It seems that we are forgetting the real issue here - what is happening with good old RYR. Are we all going to go on contract or?
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 17:18
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Scandi - this has been coming for a while IMHO. The employment of SO MANY contractors could only point one way......
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 18:33
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I have definetely had fun in Ryanair the last years, and I remember not long ago the fact that we were all proud of being members of the flight team. I never pay much attention to what outsiders say about my employer because I know what goes on in Ryanair. The problem I see with the MOL thinking is this: Cut our agreed payrise because maybe as he says we will not mak a profit in the current fiscal year. I never saw anyone from management or indeed from the pilot body asking for an extra increase in o,ur salaries when we made record profits the last three years. No one said we were expecting to make less so here is the rest to share. If we do not share in the up I do not see we should share on the way down. May be MOL should give back to the company the extra amount he made the last three yerars from his stock he sold and then I would consider joining the rest in pay freezes. I do not sell tickets, and I do not do yield management. I fly planes from a to b safely and efficiently.
The argument about contractors keeping the company flying while the pilot body goes on strike is not valid. As everything in RYR is on the limits, so six days later noone would be flying. Thank god to JARs we cannot hire guys fast enough and do training and even if thirty percent did not fly it would be enough to create chaos.
The problem is that our cabin crew have more balls than us up front, so I have to keep hoping that they go out and maybe we will gain something. Our comradery stops at the pub
When we do wake up and see in the not so far future all the cheaper pilots coming in and taking our jobs it will be a rude awakening.
The point of having low fares and bad yields is because the product is crap. Only if you drop the price will people fly with us, and it is a vicious cycle drop the prices, drop the standards, drop the standards lose more good passengers, drop the prices further. Maybe if the smart guys in the office see this and start offering a value for money people will be willing to fly with us again for a higher price. Untill this happens it will not get better IMHO
JP
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 20:30
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Vfenext quote "its only a matter of time". As a 7000hr Captain in Ryanair I think that is the most insulting and arrogant thing I have read about ME. And assuming you are a professional that is about as unprofessional as is possible to be!

What gives you the right to offer a comment about another airline which clearly you have no knowledge.

Yes we have low time cadet pilots and have flown with my fair share. Yes they have their limits but didn't we all when we started.

Oh I forgot BA, BY, easy, and about every other airline i can think off all take cadets in one form or another. So I assume you are now insulting our training department.

Ryanairs safety record is exemplary and that is a fact and considering the amount of sectors we do, the crappy airports we go to and the amount of hours we do. It is a record quite frankly I am proud of.

I think the clithe is "What an a**hole!"
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 21:38
  #53 (permalink)  
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These debates always go off on bizarre tangents and personal rants for some reason. How did experience and cockpit gradient become part of this thread?

I would be far more concerned at the public targetting of a group charged with a huge legal safety responsibility. Modern airline management seem to think that morale among their pilots is irrelevant, and are quite happy to intimidate and bully them.

Only one thing ever stops that and it is not the IAA or CAA. They just sit idly by until the big disaster and then blame everyone else.
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 22:20
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If we do not share in the up I do not see we should share on the way down.
But what about all those free shares you got? Surely you benefitted by the massive surge in their value over the last few years? I know they're a bit down now...but didn't you think of selling some when they were at their peak?

O'Leary keeps telling the Irish media that the pilots in Ryanair own 150M in free shares and I've yet to see or hear a single FR pilot refute that assertion.

I reckon it works out at around 230K each!
What are you moaning about???
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Old 15th Apr 2004, 22:30
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Faire d'income - probably because some people just can't resist an opportunity to take a pop out of FR. Ignorance to some is bliss it seems..... Sorry, I shouldn't have taken the bate mate!
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Old 16th Apr 2004, 20:51
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Thumbs up Private forum

Hi Guys...

JohnPilot and the rest.. great comments - mayby we are getting somewhere afterall...

Why don't we RYR pilots get a private forum, like some of the other carriers. There will of course be some, who can't keep the information for them self - but I think we are in a good position.

I just love that comment from JohnPilot about sharing in ups and downs. We didn't ask for much during the ups - only did we ask for 4/4 insted of 5/3 - If I remember correctly, we were told, that the company didn't want to change anything in the ongoing 5 year agreement????
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Old 18th Apr 2004, 19:15
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I expect all the non FR guys reading this will have noted the continuing wall of silence from the Ryan'ers regarding their share holdings.

Yes, get your own forum so the rest of us can be spared the belated, and apparantly exagerated whining.

PS While you're at it...get off your asses and get unionised too. Action speaks louder than words.
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Old 18th Apr 2004, 21:06
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Idunno - a quick check of the Ryanair annual report (Note 13)reveals they are OPTIONS and not shares. Therefore can only be exercised subject to various rules which interestingly enough can be amended (presumably by the trustees). The options became exercisable during 2003 although only 100,000 were cashed in during that financial year. Could be that the staff (incl senior mgt) were waiting to see if the share price went through the roof OR perhaps the rules do not allow the the shares to be exercised so easily. Just a thought for you.....
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Old 18th Apr 2004, 23:06
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Hi all
Once upon a time, those shares were given free to all employees and quite a few did well out of them.More luck to them, too, because those shares made up for the disparity in conditions compared with those enjoyed by flight deck crews (and the rest of the staff) in other companies.
The rumour on the ramp is that the staff are on a go-slow and that the FR fuel bill is set to rise accordingly.
regards
TDD
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Old 19th Apr 2004, 00:22
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those shares made up for the disparity in conditions compared with those enjoyed by flight deck crews (and the rest of the staff) in other companies.
Disparity? Only in your favour guys! When FR started up the take-home salary was double what I was making in a comparable post with an established airline, and that was after being there for over 10 years. And wannabes were joining FR and getting jet commands in 12 to 24 months...the kind of promotion that took a decade elsewhere.

As I recall, the shares were used to buy you off when O'Leary heard mutterings about a union. The pilots who were already in situ took the bribe, dropped the union talk quick time, and abandoned those who had raised the union banner, standing by in shameful silence as the local group leader was publicly executed by O'Leary.
Those who accepted the shares bribery sold out the future of every pilot who joined afterward.

The options became exercisable during 2003 although only 100,000 were cashed in during that financial year. Could be that the staff (incl senior mgt) were waiting to see if the share price went through the roof...
Hmmm...perhaps they didn't feel they needed the money, because they were doing just fine on the generous salary already? Or perhaps they were just being a bit too greedy?

....perhaps the rules do not allow the the shares to be exercised so easily.
Are you speaking from first hand knowledge or just guessing?

The FR pilots failure to stand up to O'Leary in the past has dragged them down and severely undermined the value of our profession. If they had formed a union early on and stood firm we would see a completely different face on this industry today...one where the largest and most succesful low cost carrier had a strong pilot workforce that shared fully in the success of the company, and set a positive standard for other operators.
Instead they've set an example of greed and impotence to airline managements throughout europe.

Excuse me if I don't shed a tear now the chickens are coming home to roost.
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