ATCO murdered in Zurich (Merged)
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The representatives of the famillies said they dis not want him killed just brought to justice ( Interfax 25.2. )
A sytem failed, not one person
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My point, perhaps not clearly put, was that the 'hoop' or 'swiss cheese' approach was indeed the case here, and all those 'hoops' or 'holes in the cheese' lined up to allow the tragedy. But in the final seconds the only people who physically could have prevented the collision were the aircrew, not the ATCO.
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A 48yr old suspect was arrested. He lost a wife, daughter and a son in the midair over Ueberlingen. Acording to the police the suspect had a piece of paper on his possession with the name and address of the victim and had been in SUI since 18 Feb residing close by in a hostel.
At this stage it looks like he acted alone.
Quoting entirely the press conference.
At this stage it looks like he acted alone.
Quoting entirely the press conference.
Last edited by ZRH; 26th Feb 2004 at 21:43.
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Quoted from www.swissinfo.org (English version of Swiss news website).
Ric
=============================================
"The suspect, a 48-year-old man, was arrested close to the town of Kloten near Zurich on Wednesday night. Police have refused to disclose his nationality.
The suspect was questioned and he denied committing the murder.
"But he gave the impression that he had not come to terms with the death of his daughter, son and wife who died in the accident," said Zurich prosecutor Pascal Gossner.
Gossner said the man had been in Switzerland once before to attend a memorial service for the victims of the crash. Police said he had "drawn attention to himself" at the service.
Suspect seen at murder scene
Police said the suspect had spoken to a neighbour of the 36-year-old victim on Tuesday evening.
The suspect was holding a piece of paper and wanted to know where the air traffic controller lived.
Gossner said the suspect then went and sat in the victim's garden.
According to police the victim's wife also spoke to the man. A short while later she went back inside her home and heard a sound she couldn't identify.
She then saw her husband lying on the ground and the suspect fleeing the scene.
Police said they later found a knife with a 14cm blade - suspected to be the murder weapon - close by.
The Danish victim, who died at the scene worked for the Swiss air traffic control agency, Skyguide. He had lived in Switzerland for seven years and was the father of three children."
=============================================
Ric
=============================================
"The suspect, a 48-year-old man, was arrested close to the town of Kloten near Zurich on Wednesday night. Police have refused to disclose his nationality.
The suspect was questioned and he denied committing the murder.
"But he gave the impression that he had not come to terms with the death of his daughter, son and wife who died in the accident," said Zurich prosecutor Pascal Gossner.
Gossner said the man had been in Switzerland once before to attend a memorial service for the victims of the crash. Police said he had "drawn attention to himself" at the service.
Suspect seen at murder scene
Police said the suspect had spoken to a neighbour of the 36-year-old victim on Tuesday evening.
The suspect was holding a piece of paper and wanted to know where the air traffic controller lived.
Gossner said the suspect then went and sat in the victim's garden.
According to police the victim's wife also spoke to the man. A short while later she went back inside her home and heard a sound she couldn't identify.
She then saw her husband lying on the ground and the suspect fleeing the scene.
Police said they later found a knife with a 14cm blade - suspected to be the murder weapon - close by.
The Danish victim, who died at the scene worked for the Swiss air traffic control agency, Skyguide. He had lived in Switzerland for seven years and was the father of three children."
=============================================
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Sorry guys, I've read the whole thread, discussing who might or might not be to blame for the collision. Just a line to say: should have P.N. been alone and entirely responsable for the tragic event that would not give anyone in the world the right to kill him.
It looks now as if he has been stabbed by a relative of victims of the crash, adding more pain to the pain.
Would a more swift and demonstrative response of the commercial aviation authorities and justice after a crash help to calm down the feelings of grief and revenge?
Investigations usually last for years and seldom come to clear-cut conclusions. Would there be means to speed up the investigation process on one hand and educate the public on the other hand?
It looks now as if he has been stabbed by a relative of victims of the crash, adding more pain to the pain.
Would a more swift and demonstrative response of the commercial aviation authorities and justice after a crash help to calm down the feelings of grief and revenge?
Investigations usually last for years and seldom come to clear-cut conclusions. Would there be means to speed up the investigation process on one hand and educate the public on the other hand?
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694c
Those comments of yours have embarassed me to be in the same line of work as you are. We are all aviation professionals and thos comments.... Wish I could have heard you say those out loud in front of me.. you would have been sitting on your a**
I know PN personally and you couldn't ask for a better guy. My heard goes out to his family and collegues.
I worked in Geneva the day after the Uberlingen crash. You would not believe the stress we were all under for the days following.
Skyguide.. great move reducing capacity. Let those who need time away grieve!
Those comments of yours have embarassed me to be in the same line of work as you are. We are all aviation professionals and thos comments.... Wish I could have heard you say those out loud in front of me.. you would have been sitting on your a**
I know PN personally and you couldn't ask for a better guy. My heard goes out to his family and collegues.
I worked in Geneva the day after the Uberlingen crash. You would not believe the stress we were all under for the days following.
Skyguide.. great move reducing capacity. Let those who need time away grieve!
Tsamaya sentle
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ettore,
While a more assertive official response might not mitigate feelings of grief, it might at least help to build up more confidence with those involved that the "truth" will be found, shortcomings and failures be disclosed and adequate measures be taken as soon as possible to avoid similar tragedies in the future.
The time victims usually have to wait for (financial) compensation (which can never compensate the loss of family members, of course), and the sheer number of denials, of attempts to blame others, the usual delayal tactics by lawyers, insurance companies and institutions directly involved (airline or ATC companies, aircraft manufacturers etc...) is often outrageous. It is good and important to attempt to get all the facts right, but a swift and assertive effort to care for the victims is often missing.
A very tragic chain of events, indeed, with five more victims now.
Would a more swift and demonstrative response of the commercial aviation authorities and justice after a crash help to calm down the feelings of grief and revenge?
The time victims usually have to wait for (financial) compensation (which can never compensate the loss of family members, of course), and the sheer number of denials, of attempts to blame others, the usual delayal tactics by lawyers, insurance companies and institutions directly involved (airline or ATC companies, aircraft manufacturers etc...) is often outrageous. It is good and important to attempt to get all the facts right, but a swift and assertive effort to care for the victims is often missing.
A very tragic chain of events, indeed, with five more victims now.
Uneasy Pleistocene Leftover
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I think that quite a few people here have been very, very hard on 694c. His choice in using certain adjectives to get his points across may have been insensitive under the circumstances. But this thread did not start out solely in order to express condolences. 
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My heartfelt sympathy to the grieving family. They did not deserve this. As Findo said earlier, a book expressing all our sympathy may some day help the family. Looking further ahead, perhaps we,as a profession, can pay our respects worldwide on the day of the funeral with a minutes silence as we do in the UK 11/11?
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To 694c: You can't possible know what you are talking about!
I am one of several Danes working in ACC ZRH and PN was a very good friend of mine! He was one of the best, and may he rest in peace!
I don’t know if you ever had a close friend of yours murdered, but I have NOT been able to do my job as ATCO the last couple of days and since it is my own responsibility to know if I am fit or not, I chose to stay home and mourn with good friends!
I have also been to a counselor - and I am not ashamed of that, on the contrary!
I saw the wife and PNs parents + sister yesterday, and they are all totally heartbroken, as are we! I hope they can somehow, someday get on with their lives, my thoughts are with them!
It is a very difficult time for all of us, so leave us alone and let us grieve in peace!
I hope we can get some closure now that the police captured what seems to be the perpetrator!
I am one of several Danes working in ACC ZRH and PN was a very good friend of mine! He was one of the best, and may he rest in peace!
I don’t know if you ever had a close friend of yours murdered, but I have NOT been able to do my job as ATCO the last couple of days and since it is my own responsibility to know if I am fit or not, I chose to stay home and mourn with good friends!
I have also been to a counselor - and I am not ashamed of that, on the contrary!
I saw the wife and PNs parents + sister yesterday, and they are all totally heartbroken, as are we! I hope they can somehow, someday get on with their lives, my thoughts are with them!
It is a very difficult time for all of us, so leave us alone and let us grieve in peace!
I hope we can get some closure now that the police captured what seems to be the perpetrator!
I am horrified at what the controller's family, friends and colleagues must be going through -- before and after his murder.
While I am relieved that the suspect murderer has been quickly apprehended and that he does not seem to be a mafiya hitman -- and utterly disagree with his suspicions of fault: somehow he was left in his grief to focus blame on the poor guy who happened to pull that shift.
While I am relieved that the suspect murderer has been quickly apprehended and that he does not seem to be a mafiya hitman -- and utterly disagree with his suspicions of fault: somehow he was left in his grief to focus blame on the poor guy who happened to pull that shift.
Perfect passenger
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Airship,
As well as his harsh comments about Skyguide he had this to say:
649c:
He's quite welcome to say it, but must expect some criticism about the of whom there are a disproportionate number bit. It sounds like all the SVP rubbish that used to come through my letterbox when I lived in Zurich.
[SVP = Schweizerische Volkspartei]
As well as his harsh comments about Skyguide he had this to say:
649c:
Any policeman will tell you that the most common time for burglaries to happen is at dusk, that most in Switzerland are committed by refugees from the Balkans of whom there are a disproportionate number in that country [...]
[SVP = Schweizerische Volkspartei]
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Yes indeed all the hoops were lined up and a tragic sequence of events ensued. It was not the controllers fault. We understand, especially in aviation, that this happens and design equipment and procedures that in the final analysis will rescue the situation. In this case TCAS. The Russian crew ignored it and flew into the 757.
More than just an ATCO
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Seriph wrote, ".... TCAS. The Russian crew ignored it ...."
I feel that you are simplifying the situation. From released transcripts ther was considerable confusion in the cockpit. he Eastern Block approach is to always follow the controller's instructions. Not having access to the ICAO docs at the moment I cannot check whether there is a published exception to the ICAO standards/recomendations on this.
PN made a judgement call, based on the information available to him at that moment. Tragically it was proven wrong. As many others have pointed out, "There but for the Grace of God ...."
Historically, it requires a tragedy of this magnitude to bring about improvements in the system, (e.g. the Grand Canyon accident in the 1950s).
I know that within 24 hours of at Maastricht there was a review of working practices and a number of changes were made, NOT I hasten to add, that they were unsafe in the first place. It was a case of belt and braces. I am sure that this action was taken world wide; whilst this is of no consolation to the families of any of the victims of this accident it is re-assuring that a similar occurence should not happen.
Aviation is an un-natural business and there is no way to reduce the number of accidents to zero - even were aircraft never to leave the stand there would still be weather related incidents and ground handling staff would continue to drive into them.
It is easy to point the finger of blame. The air traffic system would be completely different if it were run by controllers,or pilots, or systems people, or, as is the case, by politicians: almost all decisions are made retro-activally, not pro-activally, and the hoops keep lining up.
I feel that you are simplifying the situation. From released transcripts ther was considerable confusion in the cockpit. he Eastern Block approach is to always follow the controller's instructions. Not having access to the ICAO docs at the moment I cannot check whether there is a published exception to the ICAO standards/recomendations on this.
PN made a judgement call, based on the information available to him at that moment. Tragically it was proven wrong. As many others have pointed out, "There but for the Grace of God ...."
Historically, it requires a tragedy of this magnitude to bring about improvements in the system, (e.g. the Grand Canyon accident in the 1950s).
I know that within 24 hours of at Maastricht there was a review of working practices and a number of changes were made, NOT I hasten to add, that they were unsafe in the first place. It was a case of belt and braces. I am sure that this action was taken world wide; whilst this is of no consolation to the families of any of the victims of this accident it is re-assuring that a similar occurence should not happen.
Aviation is an un-natural business and there is no way to reduce the number of accidents to zero - even were aircraft never to leave the stand there would still be weather related incidents and ground handling staff would continue to drive into them.
It is easy to point the finger of blame. The air traffic system would be completely different if it were run by controllers,or pilots, or systems people, or, as is the case, by politicians: almost all decisions are made retro-activally, not pro-activally, and the hoops keep lining up.
GunsssR4ever
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Discovery Channel Program
Condolences to ALL concerned.
I read (for the first time) with interest through all the posts.
I pressume at least 80% is from ATC's themselves so esxcuse me if I say a bit one - sided. (I understand if you back your buddy) - I have also "killed" a pax before.
My point : I think it was Monday night - I saw a program on Discovery Channel (might be National Geographic).
Let me be honest - even I was "psyched up" after the program. Discovery Channel played judge and jury in that program condamming Skyguide and all the links that lead to the fatal mistakes made by them, and eventually the ATC and the pilot's.
All I am saying if I have lost a wife and 2 kids and saw this program (and have not too much to live for in a clapped out place) - I might have visited the ATC's address.
A lot of you know me (so I am not hiding behind a username) but I strongly suggest that you guys see the program as they clearly had inside info. It looked as if it was shot inside a Skyguide building.
But every detail was there - from the telephone system that the ATC gave permission to switch off to the main radar .. to the ATC next to him that went for a break and the screen he did not watch. ... and I do not say it is corrrect !
If it is a lot of duff gen Discovery channel (maybe Nat Geo) must take a lot of blame !!!
Once again ... if I was a disturbed person nothing to live for after loosing a family - who knows - the thought of visiting his address might have crossed my mind as well.
PS: Where can I read more about TCAS procedures as I know nothing about it. MUST you follow what it shouts at you above any ATC command ?
Sorry I am not English - hope it makes sence what I am trying to say.
RIP all.
God Bless you all that remains behind flying and gaurding the skies...
I read (for the first time) with interest through all the posts.
I pressume at least 80% is from ATC's themselves so esxcuse me if I say a bit one - sided. (I understand if you back your buddy) - I have also "killed" a pax before.
My point : I think it was Monday night - I saw a program on Discovery Channel (might be National Geographic).
Let me be honest - even I was "psyched up" after the program. Discovery Channel played judge and jury in that program condamming Skyguide and all the links that lead to the fatal mistakes made by them, and eventually the ATC and the pilot's.
All I am saying if I have lost a wife and 2 kids and saw this program (and have not too much to live for in a clapped out place) - I might have visited the ATC's address.
A lot of you know me (so I am not hiding behind a username) but I strongly suggest that you guys see the program as they clearly had inside info. It looked as if it was shot inside a Skyguide building.
But every detail was there - from the telephone system that the ATC gave permission to switch off to the main radar .. to the ATC next to him that went for a break and the screen he did not watch. ... and I do not say it is corrrect !
If it is a lot of duff gen Discovery channel (maybe Nat Geo) must take a lot of blame !!!
Once again ... if I was a disturbed person nothing to live for after loosing a family - who knows - the thought of visiting his address might have crossed my mind as well.
PS: Where can I read more about TCAS procedures as I know nothing about it. MUST you follow what it shouts at you above any ATC command ?
Sorry I am not English - hope it makes sence what I am trying to say.
RIP all.
God Bless you all that remains behind flying and gaurding the skies...
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Yeah Guns I suppose I might also have visited the ATC's house. Who knows?
The sad thing is that we all know that the poor bloke is not the only one to carry any blame. He had a zillion systems to back him up and when those systems fail he is alone. In those days prior to the midair, the techs never told you what they were up to, except if they fiddled with the radar. So he didnt know that the half the systems weren't operable!!
As for Nat Geographics and the Discovery Channel: Very interesting and often very sensational "documentaries" but not always acurate. In fact, hardly ever acurate. If they were acurate, the programs would be boring and nobody would subscribe......
The memorial service was held this afternoon......very sad, but at least it gave everyone the chance to say good bye to their friend and show support and solidarity to his wife and help her carry and cope with the grief. She is also an ATC by the way.
The sad thing is that we all know that the poor bloke is not the only one to carry any blame. He had a zillion systems to back him up and when those systems fail he is alone. In those days prior to the midair, the techs never told you what they were up to, except if they fiddled with the radar. So he didnt know that the half the systems weren't operable!!
As for Nat Geographics and the Discovery Channel: Very interesting and often very sensational "documentaries" but not always acurate. In fact, hardly ever acurate. If they were acurate, the programs would be boring and nobody would subscribe......
The memorial service was held this afternoon......very sad, but at least it gave everyone the chance to say good bye to their friend and show support and solidarity to his wife and help her carry and cope with the grief. She is also an ATC by the way.
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Accountability.
If we pilots screw up with fatal consequences, we're either also dead or facing long prison sentences. Must give pause for thought for those in the ATC profession, I shouldn't wonder. If I were the Russian gentleman currently languishing in a ZRH remand cell, I'd be feeling like justice had been served. Two aircraft, same level, same frequency, converging tracks, middle of the night. There simply is no systemic excuse for that level of dereliction of duty and professional incompetence. The guy screwed up, and he's paid for it with his life.
Controversial statement? Perhaps, but consider the impact of our decisions and how they effect the lives of those who depend on us for the safety of their loved ones.
Controversial statement? Perhaps, but consider the impact of our decisions and how they effect the lives of those who depend on us for the safety of their loved ones.