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BA Pilots to have stun Guns !!!!!!!!

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BA Pilots to have stun Guns !!!!!!!!

Old 12th Oct 2001, 19:42
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Exclamation BA Pilots to have stun Guns !!!!!!!!

Just seen on AOL news that BA's in house newspaper has announced that Pilots may be armed with Stun Guns.

Anyone else heard anything, or is the Friday Firelighter Zapping us again with information that we pilots don't yet know anything about?

Prepare to take aim!!!!!!!

Safe Flying
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Old 12th Oct 2001, 19:51
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Don't mess with Nigel!! Article in full..

BA CONSIDERS GIVING PILOTS STUN GUNS

BRITISH Airways is considering arming its pilots with stun guns and placing sky marshals on flights.

The airline is also looking at the possibility of introducing new computer software capable of compiling a passenger blacklist.

Another option is installing closed-circuit TV cameras on board flights - a plan that had already been trialled by BA before the terror attacks on the US.

But BA has ruled out arming its flight crew with guns or knives as they "may serve only to arm an unarmed intruder".

The raft of possible security enhancements were outlined in the latest edition of BA's weekly in-house journal, British Airways News.

"It was vitally important that we acted quickly, but not in a knee-jerk fashion," said David Hyde, BA's director off safety, security and the environment.

"We have to bring in logical measures designed to counter the events of September 11 - measures which can be sustained. We are committed to remaining a safe and secure airline, with the safety of our passengers, crew and aircraft of paramount importance."

Germany has started putting armed guards on some commercial flight routes to increase safety and improve passenger confidence. A government minister confirmed the new move as latest figures show Germans are taking fewer flights than before the September 11 attacks in the US. Henner Wittling, secretary of state in the transport ministry, said the sky marshals are armed. But he refused to say how many guards were being deployed or on which routes or airlines they were being used.

(edited for typo)

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: DouglasDigby ]
 
Old 12th Oct 2001, 20:04
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fish

Flaps at 5 - check
Throttles - check
Phasers on stun - check
...
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Old 12th Oct 2001, 21:57
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The airline is also looking at the possibility of introducing new computer software capable of compiling a passenger blacklist.

Hooray, let's employ even more IT specialists
Nice of them to tell their pilots
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Old 12th Oct 2001, 22:17
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But could a stun gun stop multiple hijackers?
wouldn't you have to get the wires out of the first target before dealing with the next?
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Old 12th Oct 2001, 22:28
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Surely better than nothing - and a good deterrent I would have thought?

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Old 12th Oct 2001, 23:07
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Hooray, let's employ even more IT specialists
Works for me

wouldn't you have to get the wires out of the first target before dealing with the next?
Depends on they type you're using. Most "stun guns" are a lot like cattle prods- two electrodes (sharpened to penetrate clothing) attached to a handle. The limitations are (1) you must be within arms' length of your target and (2) it takes a few seconds to charge between each use (it uses the same circuit as an electronic flash). Those limitations are actually an advantage for the good guys- a hijacker armed with one wouldn't have a prayer against 200 pi55ed-off pax, while a hostie could fend off 1 or 2 bad guys with it.
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Old 12th Oct 2001, 23:34
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Cool

The airline is also looking at the possibility of introducing new computer software capable of compiling a passenger blacklist.
I hope they have software capable of this - it is simply a database; even works with paper - all they need to do is link their 'naughty boys' list with their booking software (which I hope they've updated, my brother sold them a computer a few years ago, and their backup was on punched cards) and to actually check who books seats. The other requirement is to enhance the list, both incorporating FBI/special branch suspects and people refused carriage with other carriers
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Old 13th Oct 2001, 00:23
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Actually DERA (Defence Research and Evaluation Agency - part of which is now also known as QinetiQ - See also) are right now developing the use of the Boarder Guard product (See also: What Price Safety ?!) in conjunction with various other airlines (mine included).

Indeed on Tuesday I personally spent a very long day - involved with it in a consultancy role - with the folks running the project at DERA, during which we were mostly determining how best to implement a substantial trial at several UK (and maybe some overseas) airports.
This prototype will likely include both scheduled & charter air carriers.
Thus far an implementation in December has been mentioned, which means that there is a huge amount to do !

Ultimately the basis of DERA's plan is to integrate all the 'Security Services' and other (including international) agency databases and / or provide feeds to / from them, but much more than that I can't tell you ( as it's a secret )
However initially, as proof if concept, it's been proposed to integrate the data of a certain government department, as well as implement a Disruptive Pax database; We're, to a some degree, still working out what the 'scope' is for the trial in order that when we finish the trial period we can then say (hopefully) that it has been a roaring success !

Nb. It is probably ok however to mention that to fund the project it's been proposed to cream off 1 of the PDT (passenger departure tax), which (imho) seems like a very worthy use of that money.

In any event, and to my understanding, BA were / are looking at attempting a unilateral project, i.e. going it alone - as in, they think they can do a better job in-house on their own than can the rest of us when all working / pulling together ............. shakes head in disbelief ............. but there again, just look at the state of BA these days !

Ps. Before any knockers jump in and say that I'm anti-BA, I'll point out that I'm also a BA share holder - which I believe entitles me to something of a say in as to how it is run.

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: CrashDive ]
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Old 13th Oct 2001, 00:47
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Got details of the DERA scheme via the UK Flight Safety Committee about a year ago. Seemed to be a very comprehensive and flexible system, main stumbling block was data protection. Doubt that would be too much of a problem now.
 
Old 13th Oct 2001, 01:02
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I beleive stun guns use a charge of many thousands of volts to be effective. Could this not also have the effect of possibly stunning the aircraft's flight systems?

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Old 13th Oct 2001, 01:27
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Back to BA News story saying guns & knives may provide weapons to unarmed intruders. Would these "stun guns" be attatched to pilots phsyically or just emotionally?
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Old 13th Oct 2001, 01:50
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DouglasD let's hope you right, e.g. now let me see.... protection of the nation's security and innocent lives.... as opposed to those who'd promote freedom for this, that, and the other....... which is the more important ?

One would hope that, post 11/9, on the list of things to worry about, concern w.r.t. the Data Protection act, etc. is going to be waaaaayyyyyyyy down the list ! ...... as in, 'If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to worry about'.

Nb. If any bleeding heart 'freedom for this' and 'freedom for that' protagonists still can't figure it, then please ask yourself just how much freedom have the corpses of those murdered on September 11th ?!

Ps. Sorry to hijack your thread, had a bit of a long week, needed to blow some steam... please accept my apologies.
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Old 13th Oct 2001, 02:47
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Crah Dive, I'm all for the most stringent measures to prevent any future catastrophe. Where are all the anti-finger printing/DNA testing/national ID card liberals now??!! Computer screening is an excellent idea, but only if correct identities are fed into the system. False IDs are one problem, & I won't go into details about other anomalies in public. Combine computer screening with aggressive pre-flight "personal" screening such as done by El Al, and I think that a very effective system could be put into effect.
 
Old 13th Oct 2001, 03:54
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Ok..so it might not be 100% at identifying terrorists, but it might keep a few nutters out of the sky...football hooligans etc, so this data base idea has to be a good thing.
Likewise the stun guns..seems the world of aviation is increasing the requirement for them each year by lone nutters and thugs. Wasn't there a stewardess slashed by a bottle recently in flight?
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Old 13th Oct 2001, 03:59
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One more thought on all this. As I understand it, the carrying of stun guns is presently illegal in UK, so if BA are going to do this, somewhere the law will have to be changed. Curious to know if the exemption would be likely to apply to ONLY BA crews, or ALL airline pilots. If the latter, would that allow any airline pilot in UK to carry one, or would they also require their own airline to apply for exemption ?
Can anyone with legal knowledge guess an answer to that?
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Old 13th Oct 2001, 19:14
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Arrow

How about one of these new 'Tazer' guns that zaps an electric charge at the assailant a'la StarWars style, with no physical contact?!

It seems there are a number of avenues here to follow,and only with the advice of the best professionals in this type of business.

At the same time, when these solutions are found, keep them away from the press and just demonstrated to the crews involved.
An element of surprise is needed as well as tactical force.
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Old 13th Oct 2001, 20:35
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But BA has ruled out arming its flight crew with guns or knives as they "may serve only to arm an unarmed intruder".
Hmmm, seems logical. I am sure glad that BA has not taken a "knee jerk" approach to the safety of its aircraft!

The pilot that is not intelligent enough or too busy to be trained to use a firearm, will now be competent enough and have the time for hand to hand combat in the cockpit.

My money is on the terrorist!

A stun gun is a device that looks much like an electric razor. It has a battery and a capacitor, and works just like an ignition coil. There are 2 electrodes attached to the top of the thing that MUST touch the assailant in order to POSSIBLY incapacitate him (please Mr. Atta, STAND STILL so I can shock you!). Once he is incapacitated, there is no telling how long he will be out (Gee! I'm sure glad I didn't have a GUN! Instead of flying the aircraft after grappling with Mr. Terrorist, I have to stand watch over this guy and keep administering the shock treatment every time he wakes up!) There is also the problem of multiple intruders (I realize that it is far fetched to think that more than ONE guy would be willing to martyr himself for allah)

For a stun gun to be effective, you need to be standing up and facing the guy. If this guy is determined and just as importantly, TRAINED in unarmed combat, and you aren't, you lost before it started!

If you are sitting in a pilot seat, a stun gun is worse than useless. The hijacker has ALL of the advantage. He is behind you, standing up. As you reach around to TRY to touch him, he will merely keep backing out of reach until he can grab your wrist. At this point he will hyperextend your arm around the seat, breaking it, and take the stun gun from you. You, and your FO will now experience the joys of electric shock!

This makes much more sense than keeping the intruder(s) at arms length with a pistol!


The other device that is incorrectly called a stun gun is a Taser. It is a gun like device that fires 2 micro thin wires into the bad guy, and nails him with a bunch of amps. The only up side is that you don't have to physically touch the guy. The downsides to this are even more than a stun gun however. First, you have to hit him with BOTH electrodes, Then they have to stay in him until he is rendered unconcious, and most importantly, there is NO SECOND CHANCE! When he wakes up and pulls the electrodes out, you are once again unarmed!

A repeating firearm with an integral laser sight is the ONLY answer to arming piolts. Anything less is worse than nothing.
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Old 13th Oct 2001, 20:50
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This is certainly going to make my nightstops a LOT more interesting! Will it come with a scrotal adaptor? There'll be some "knee-jerk" reactions going on there I can tell you!
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Old 13th Oct 2001, 21:20
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Stun guns be bug gered! Give 'em Sten guns!!
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