Ryanair pilots to fight O'Leary ban on unions
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Ryanair pilots to fight O'Leary ban on unions
As reported in the Sunday Times:
RYANAIR'S pilots are attempting to break Michael O'Leary's
long-standing ban on trade unions ahead of next year's wage
negotiations.
If successful, the move could see the company's €93m wage bill
rocket. The move is being fiercely resisted by O'Leary, Ryanair's
chief executive.
Ryanair's near 500 pilots will renegotiate their five-year pay deal
in 2005. Informed sources say they are now examining ways of forming
a union to bargain with management.
It is understood the pilots want to change the manner in which they
are remunerated. Many favour securing bigger basic salaries instead
of share options, following the 30% collapse in the airline's share
price 10 days ago after a management profit warning.
"They want a bigger slice of the cake and share options no longer
look as attractive as they once were," said one source.
Pilots also want to abolish the practice of being moved from base to
base at the instruction of the airline. They are the biggest earners
among Ryanair's workforce and would have a strong bargaining
position but O'Leary made it clear he will not negotiate with any
trade union. "If any of our fellas aren't happy with the current
arrangement then they're free to go elsewhere," he said. "Godspeed
to them. But don't forget that SAS let 150 pilots go in the past six
months; Jetmagic in Ireland has gone bust and Flying Finn is close
to bankruptcy so there aren't a lot of airlines hiring at the
moment."
A successful move by pilots to form a trade union would encourage
other workers at the airline to follow suit and could sigificantly
inflate Ryanair's staff costs. O'Leary has rebuffed a number of
previous attempts by pilots for union recognition.
"They didn't succeed in the past and they won't succeed in the
future," he said.
Ryanair's pilots are currently represented in negotiations by
self-appointed worker representative groups in each country where
the firm has bases.
O'Leary described the share options as the "icing on the cake" for
pilots. He ruled out replacing them with bigger pay packets.
He said the pilots' options are currently worth between €150m and
€200m. Many of these were awarded in the company's early years as a
public company and were valued at €1.50 and €2.50. Ryanair's share
price closed in Dublin on Friday at €5.20.
O'Leary said Ryanair's pilots were among the best paid in Europe. On
average, captains earn about €120,000 while first officers receive
between €75,000 and €80,000.
Concerns over Ryanair's staff costs were last week highlighted in a
report by Andrew Lobbenberg, the ABN Amro aviation analyst in
London. He said pilot costs would face "upward pressure" in the
future, as stock options no longer appeared as attractive to staff
and a "union organising effort" could be expected soon.
Lobbenberg estimated that Ryanair's costs will rise to 191m in
2006, driven in large part by Ryanair's aggressive expansion plans.
He currently has a "reduce" recommendation on Ryanair and a "fair
value" of €4.40 on each share.
RYANAIR'S pilots are attempting to break Michael O'Leary's
long-standing ban on trade unions ahead of next year's wage
negotiations.
If successful, the move could see the company's €93m wage bill
rocket. The move is being fiercely resisted by O'Leary, Ryanair's
chief executive.
Ryanair's near 500 pilots will renegotiate their five-year pay deal
in 2005. Informed sources say they are now examining ways of forming
a union to bargain with management.
It is understood the pilots want to change the manner in which they
are remunerated. Many favour securing bigger basic salaries instead
of share options, following the 30% collapse in the airline's share
price 10 days ago after a management profit warning.
"They want a bigger slice of the cake and share options no longer
look as attractive as they once were," said one source.
Pilots also want to abolish the practice of being moved from base to
base at the instruction of the airline. They are the biggest earners
among Ryanair's workforce and would have a strong bargaining
position but O'Leary made it clear he will not negotiate with any
trade union. "If any of our fellas aren't happy with the current
arrangement then they're free to go elsewhere," he said. "Godspeed
to them. But don't forget that SAS let 150 pilots go in the past six
months; Jetmagic in Ireland has gone bust and Flying Finn is close
to bankruptcy so there aren't a lot of airlines hiring at the
moment."
A successful move by pilots to form a trade union would encourage
other workers at the airline to follow suit and could sigificantly
inflate Ryanair's staff costs. O'Leary has rebuffed a number of
previous attempts by pilots for union recognition.
"They didn't succeed in the past and they won't succeed in the
future," he said.
Ryanair's pilots are currently represented in negotiations by
self-appointed worker representative groups in each country where
the firm has bases.
O'Leary described the share options as the "icing on the cake" for
pilots. He ruled out replacing them with bigger pay packets.
He said the pilots' options are currently worth between €150m and
€200m. Many of these were awarded in the company's early years as a
public company and were valued at €1.50 and €2.50. Ryanair's share
price closed in Dublin on Friday at €5.20.
O'Leary said Ryanair's pilots were among the best paid in Europe. On
average, captains earn about €120,000 while first officers receive
between €75,000 and €80,000.
Concerns over Ryanair's staff costs were last week highlighted in a
report by Andrew Lobbenberg, the ABN Amro aviation analyst in
London. He said pilot costs would face "upward pressure" in the
future, as stock options no longer appeared as attractive to staff
and a "union organising effort" could be expected soon.
Lobbenberg estimated that Ryanair's costs will rise to 191m in
2006, driven in large part by Ryanair's aggressive expansion plans.
He currently has a "reduce" recommendation on Ryanair and a "fair
value" of €4.40 on each share.
Last edited by LTNman; 9th Feb 2004 at 04:06.
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Good luck to Ryan Air pilot's Union!
It's in the interest of all of us that negociations for pilots wages and conditions are more balanced, and bosses like O'Leary can't anymore dictate their will to the obedient employees, like it was in 19th century.
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I keep reading on this site what a great airline Ryanair is.
In the last few weeks the share price has plummeted,
the wheelchair issue had to be seen to be believed,
and we had to endure o'leary on our screens bleating about this and that, and now he's telling pilots if you don't like it ,clear off.
kinda makes you glad you don't work for such a arrogant little
s...t.
In the last few weeks the share price has plummeted,
the wheelchair issue had to be seen to be believed,
and we had to endure o'leary on our screens bleating about this and that, and now he's telling pilots if you don't like it ,clear off.
kinda makes you glad you don't work for such a arrogant little
s...t.
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So Down3greens effectively what your saying is that you don't care what happens to the T&C of other employees as long as you get your break.
You might be willing to work for nothing but some of us have mortgages to pay on our mansions aka a 2 bed flat.
Can't think of anywhere in the UK/Eire aviation seen where a pilot's union has held an airline to ransom. Airlines have certainly taken the p*ss out of their employees though.
So when the next bunch of youngsters come along and are willing to do the job for less than you're willing to do it you'll happily stand aside?
Nice to see you're a team member, your attitude will go far in the cockpit........
You might be willing to work for nothing but some of us have mortgages to pay on our mansions aka a 2 bed flat.
Can't think of anywhere in the UK/Eire aviation seen where a pilot's union has held an airline to ransom. Airlines have certainly taken the p*ss out of their employees though.
So when the next bunch of youngsters come along and are willing to do the job for less than you're willing to do it you'll happily stand aside?
Nice to see you're a team member, your attitude will go far in the cockpit........
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down3greens you point is fair based on your lack of experience in this industry. At the moment Ryanair have something you want and they will make you pay extensively for it but that doesn't matter to you right now. Eventually you will have something they want..command experience. By then you will be wanting a return on your investment. Lets reopen this thread in 5 years time and see if you've changed your mind any!
For now , just enjoy it.
For now , just enjoy it.
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Ryanair Pilots should all call sick one morning. Then MOl can see
what he wants. Get the Birds off the ground? for that he still
need Pilots or he flies them all himself. If he is able then he can
send his drivers really all in the desert. This bloke doesn`t like
to learn that a "together" is better then any conflict at all. That
expirience will cost him a lot of his so much loved "bucks" again.
I will look closely for the development there as many see Ryanair
as a example from the EU-LCC.
NG
what he wants. Get the Birds off the ground? for that he still
need Pilots or he flies them all himself. If he is able then he can
send his drivers really all in the desert. This bloke doesn`t like
to learn that a "together" is better then any conflict at all. That
expirience will cost him a lot of his so much loved "bucks" again.
I will look closely for the development there as many see Ryanair
as a example from the EU-LCC.
NG
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O'Leary is an absolute disgrace.
So he's using the current pilot surplus to treat pilots like muck. You're even treat like dirt when you apply - you must pay a fee at a point in the application process. Isn't spending >£40K on an fATPL enough, isn't it their turn to put a bit of investment into the pilot. I could go on...
He sounds like a guy "that needs to be knocked down a few notches or two." Maybe he needs to learn "treat as you would like to be treat".
I hope he chokes on his dinner.
Down3greens,
I know where you are coming from. As a wannabe, I say that I would work for free or minimal wage to get that dream job, but so do lots of pilots when they start. However, when you're working hard for long periods of time during unsociable hours, you will start to rightfully believe, like most line pilots, that you should be rewarded for it. Your attitude will change.
If any of our fellas aren't happy with the current
arrangement then they're free to go elsewhere," he said. "Godspeed
to them. But don't forget that SAS let 150 pilots go in the past six
months; Jetmagic in Ireland has gone bust and Flying Finn is close
to bankruptcy so there aren't a lot of airlines hiring at the
moment
arrangement then they're free to go elsewhere," he said. "Godspeed
to them. But don't forget that SAS let 150 pilots go in the past six
months; Jetmagic in Ireland has gone bust and Flying Finn is close
to bankruptcy so there aren't a lot of airlines hiring at the
moment
He sounds like a guy "that needs to be knocked down a few notches or two." Maybe he needs to learn "treat as you would like to be treat".
I hope he chokes on his dinner.
Down3greens,
I know where you are coming from. As a wannabe, I say that I would work for free or minimal wage to get that dream job, but so do lots of pilots when they start. However, when you're working hard for long periods of time during unsociable hours, you will start to rightfully believe, like most line pilots, that you should be rewarded for it. Your attitude will change.
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Down3greens, would a financial analyst or an IT specialist pay to join a company and then earn nothing (or so little) for a year and then accept to be moved to here and there because (s)he has not got his word because he's bonded ?
NO.
Why do you accept such a sucking behavior and consider it as normal ???
Also, one previous post is mentionning you'll be seeing things differently 5 years down the road. I would say you'll see things differently 2 years down the road. Your analysis is not objective and that of a plane spotter standing by the airfield's fence, dwirling at each take-off he's witnessing. Once you're onboard, things will look very much different. But I understand your feelings, I used to think the very same way.
MOL's behavior is a disgrace, regardless of the industry. You simply don't act this way when ethics is somewhat an issue to you.
Last, don't compare air transport with the Coal industry. It simply is not comparable and dimolishes your image and reflexion.
NO.
Why do you accept such a sucking behavior and consider it as normal ???
Also, one previous post is mentionning you'll be seeing things differently 5 years down the road. I would say you'll see things differently 2 years down the road. Your analysis is not objective and that of a plane spotter standing by the airfield's fence, dwirling at each take-off he's witnessing. Once you're onboard, things will look very much different. But I understand your feelings, I used to think the very same way.
MOL's behavior is a disgrace, regardless of the industry. You simply don't act this way when ethics is somewhat an issue to you.
Last, don't compare air transport with the Coal industry. It simply is not comparable and dimolishes your image and reflexion.
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Well, I am 200 hours flight time and also trying to do the TRSS for Ryanair.
Why am I willing to pay so much just to get that kind of job?
Just because this is the only way that people like us has to earn flight experience, earn some money and make a dream come true: fly an airplane.
It´s very hard to stay at home all the day, with nowhere to work and to pay if you want to fly. At least in Ryanair you pay for your training but later one will be flying a 737 all along Europe and getting experience that may open new doors in the future.
I think this is a really good oportunity, if they treat you bad, well, all the beginnigs are difficult, that is the price that people like me has to pay. I prefer to be poorly paid, moved from one base to another at the company discrection and so on in Ryanair than experience the same flying a Seneca with 200kg overweight in newspapers like some people I know does.
It´s just the point of view of each one. For an experienced pilot, is a **** of job but for a simple wannabe it´s just an oportunity.
Oportunities come once in the lifetime.
Why am I willing to pay so much just to get that kind of job?
Just because this is the only way that people like us has to earn flight experience, earn some money and make a dream come true: fly an airplane.
It´s very hard to stay at home all the day, with nowhere to work and to pay if you want to fly. At least in Ryanair you pay for your training but later one will be flying a 737 all along Europe and getting experience that may open new doors in the future.
I think this is a really good oportunity, if they treat you bad, well, all the beginnigs are difficult, that is the price that people like me has to pay. I prefer to be poorly paid, moved from one base to another at the company discrection and so on in Ryanair than experience the same flying a Seneca with 200kg overweight in newspapers like some people I know does.
It´s just the point of view of each one. For an experienced pilot, is a **** of job but for a simple wannabe it´s just an oportunity.
Oportunities come once in the lifetime.
Controversial, moi?
Those of us lucky enough to be in well paid and relatively secure airline positions can easily bleat about people willing to work for next to nothing and undermining the rest of us.
I worked for two years earning a pittance as a civilian flying instructor followed by a year of working for an outfit that also paid a pittance with no allowances, etc., etc., before being accepted for a major airline, funny enough during the last pilot shortage!
We can bleat all we like but I can fully understand new pilots working for nothing in order to gain the experience to enable a move on to better things. It is market forces at work pure and simple.
Historically there is nearly always a glut of pilots/new pilots and rarely a shortage. When there is a shortage it causes the likes of MOL much deserved grief.
He is exploiting the market, what should he do? Should he say 'I have more pilots than I need and people queueing up for the job but I will pay more than is necessary because I am a jolly good chap'?
Who said life was fair?
I worked for two years earning a pittance as a civilian flying instructor followed by a year of working for an outfit that also paid a pittance with no allowances, etc., etc., before being accepted for a major airline, funny enough during the last pilot shortage!
We can bleat all we like but I can fully understand new pilots working for nothing in order to gain the experience to enable a move on to better things. It is market forces at work pure and simple.
Historically there is nearly always a glut of pilots/new pilots and rarely a shortage. When there is a shortage it causes the likes of MOL much deserved grief.
He is exploiting the market, what should he do? Should he say 'I have more pilots than I need and people queueing up for the job but I will pay more than is necessary because I am a jolly good chap'?
Who said life was fair?
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A lot of the new pilots of this generation don't see it quite the same way as you. This is 2004 post 9/11 and whilst a lot of you reminisce about the good old days when flying was a gentlemans club, a great profession with two sector days and fat pay checks, people from my generation have been born into a totally different world and vastly different industry.
The unions cannot be allowed to hold to ransom the airlines by encouraging militant action if their PRIVILEGED members don't get what they want, which is to the detriment of the business model and shareholders.
It is true you are already among the highest paid pilots in europe and the reason guys like me relish the opportunity to join Ryan is not the money as much as the career potential. you guys want to have your cake and eat it.
What MOL said I have encoutered numerous times, as have most 21st century employees in jobs far less privileged than the ones you hold..... "If you don't want to do it their will be plenty of others willing to"
True, unions have sent airlines under. See what the BCA did for Sabena but the BCA's attitude was far removed from BALPA's attitude.
remember this when you squabble over a few extra thousand on your already massive salary. It may serve you better to look at all the people below you with a lot less who want your jobs.
there are loads of people on the interview jobs and sponsorship forum waiting to fill them.
"I don't care about the T&Cs of other employees as long as I get my break"
I don't quite get that Scotty as they will be the very same T&C's that I will be a part of
People want and are happy with the share options when they're making money, if the value hadn't slipped by a third in recent weeks would this thread even exist?
just because my outlook and perspective on this issue is different, that has nothing to do with how I perform and interact.
When you do get on the line ask the Captain that you're flying with to move over as you and your buddies are willing to do his job for less and see what his reaction is
The British Coal Industry died not because the workforce or product wasn't good it was because the Polish equivalent was far more financially viable. Major corporations call centres are all going to India, again, not because our workers are not professional but we are not as economically competitive. In May this year 10 eastern european countries join the EU, many of whom will have pilots that when JAA certified will be able to be more cost effective, we are all JAA, or equivalent, pilots living in an enlarging EU and we have to be able to compete to survive.
Do you think everyone in any career in the old EU is going to see there standard of living drop because workers from the east will do it for less? Or do you perhaps think CSA pilots will now say to there employer. Hey I can go and work for easyJet or Ryanair for 120,000 euros, what are you going to do to keep me? The same will go for LOT airlines and the other airlines in the new EU countries. I think the companies in the East have a lot more to worry about from integration then the companies in the West.
I hope the standard of living in the Eastern European countries will improve dramatically over time.
Best of luck getting into Ryanair and in a 3 or 4 years come back and tell us if you still think the same!!!!!
One word of advice though, don't be so vitriolic towards your future colleagues. Remember most of them have trodden the same path as you.
Last edited by Scottie; 9th Feb 2004 at 19:40.
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Down in 3 Greens reminds me of that controversial post (and associated letter in the log) we had from Andy Walker at LGW a few years ago.
He berated the BA pilots for enjoying a reasonable standard of living .
What a fool he made of himself.
I fear Down in 3 greens is doing the same!
Some good replies listed above from Scottie and others!
He berated the BA pilots for enjoying a reasonable standard of living .
What a fool he made of himself.
I fear Down in 3 greens is doing the same!
Some good replies listed above from Scottie and others!
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Bijave/Scottie,
Despite Down3greens questionable personal ethics, he makes a good point. Any employee is only worth what their employer will pay them.
This has been discussed on earlier threads about pilot T&Cs in general, so I will try and condense for ease of reading. There are several issues pilots today need to be aware of when it comes to pay deals :
1) There is a surplus of qualified pilots.
2) This surplus is only going to get worse as more airlines go to the wall.
3) The public is unlikely to have sympathy for pilots in a strike situation.
4) None of you pilots were forced into the industry. You all chose it with eyes open.
5) Change is a fact of life in industry. You either adapt to it or you get out. Simple choice.
6) You get more than ample salaries at the moment.
7) Not many of you have nothing to fall back on in terms of education.
That said you should have the same rights and responsibilities as any company employee with regards to union association. For those in Ryanair, I would check EU law on union membership and working conditions. The key concept to check out is whether Ryanair are allowed to negotiate independently with each group of pilots in the separate bases. My understanding is that it is illegal to pay two employees, doing the same job, differently. This stands AFAIK for location, gender, race, religion etc.
Some final thoughts.
1) According to the financial press Ryanair could run passengerless for 3 years before it was in trouble. That assumes it is still flying so imagine how long it can go if it is not flying. How many Ryanair pilots could go 3 years with no sector pay?
2) What is to stop MOL simply shutting Ryanair down, taking his money and retiring. Leaving even more unemployed pilots?
3) Why not try looking for a win-win option to present MOL rather than digging heels in this early? MOL maybe an arrogant SOB but he is a successful businessman and prefers opportunities to confrontation.
Good Luck to all
BHR
Despite Down3greens questionable personal ethics, he makes a good point. Any employee is only worth what their employer will pay them.
This has been discussed on earlier threads about pilot T&Cs in general, so I will try and condense for ease of reading. There are several issues pilots today need to be aware of when it comes to pay deals :
1) There is a surplus of qualified pilots.
2) This surplus is only going to get worse as more airlines go to the wall.
3) The public is unlikely to have sympathy for pilots in a strike situation.
4) None of you pilots were forced into the industry. You all chose it with eyes open.
5) Change is a fact of life in industry. You either adapt to it or you get out. Simple choice.
6) You get more than ample salaries at the moment.
7) Not many of you have nothing to fall back on in terms of education.
That said you should have the same rights and responsibilities as any company employee with regards to union association. For those in Ryanair, I would check EU law on union membership and working conditions. The key concept to check out is whether Ryanair are allowed to negotiate independently with each group of pilots in the separate bases. My understanding is that it is illegal to pay two employees, doing the same job, differently. This stands AFAIK for location, gender, race, religion etc.
Some final thoughts.
1) According to the financial press Ryanair could run passengerless for 3 years before it was in trouble. That assumes it is still flying so imagine how long it can go if it is not flying. How many Ryanair pilots could go 3 years with no sector pay?
2) What is to stop MOL simply shutting Ryanair down, taking his money and retiring. Leaving even more unemployed pilots?
3) Why not try looking for a win-win option to present MOL rather than digging heels in this early? MOL maybe an arrogant SOB but he is a successful businessman and prefers opportunities to confrontation.
Good Luck to all
BHR
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I think that the problem with any union representation is that it is often overly heavy handed , tries to achieve unrealistic goals, and often incompetent and overpriced. The reasons for having a union are surely to level the playing field and protect the members against abuse. I can't see ryanair being unionised, and quite frankly who can blame o leary, he is protecting his interests, and the interests of the company.
The whole thing is about control.
What is the answer guys? any suggestions?
Down3greens = company spyware.
Rodquiman - surely the point of joining a company is to have a career with them, not just to gain experience so that you can leave to join another company. This kind of behavoir has resulted in bonds being increased and a general worsening of pay and conditions for those joining Ryanair.
The whole thing is about control.
What is the answer guys? any suggestions?
Down3greens = company spyware.
Rodquiman - surely the point of joining a company is to have a career with them, not just to gain experience so that you can leave to join another company. This kind of behavoir has resulted in bonds being increased and a general worsening of pay and conditions for those joining Ryanair.
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We`ve all been there, well most of us anyway. Anchored to terra firma with a freshly minted pilot license in our pocket, an airliner passes overhead in the clear blue sky and you get that twinge in the pit of your stomach, frustration has a new meaning. You feel like you would do anything to be in that cockpit! Believe me it is awesome when you finally get the opportunity but soon there after life becomes normal. The ordinary things in life become important to you again, like seeing your family.
The problem with the on going erosion to the terms and conditions of pilot employment is that the doors that you feel are being opened to you by accepting these indentured conditions will not be worth walking through once the initial euphoria fades.
The frustration you felt as a fledgling will pale in comparisen to the phone call reassigning you to a base several hundred miles from your family , for no apparent reason, with no recourse. The threat of instant dismissal if you don`t accept that duty extension, oh and by the way we are cutting your salary next month and if you don`t like it.
You WILL wish you were like your mates (if you still have any) with normal secure regular careers. I`m no big fan of unions, but if ever there was a need for one then MOL is it! Not just for the Ryan guys but for the profession as a whole.
The problem with the on going erosion to the terms and conditions of pilot employment is that the doors that you feel are being opened to you by accepting these indentured conditions will not be worth walking through once the initial euphoria fades.
The frustration you felt as a fledgling will pale in comparisen to the phone call reassigning you to a base several hundred miles from your family , for no apparent reason, with no recourse. The threat of instant dismissal if you don`t accept that duty extension, oh and by the way we are cutting your salary next month and if you don`t like it.
You WILL wish you were like your mates (if you still have any) with normal secure regular careers. I`m no big fan of unions, but if ever there was a need for one then MOL is it! Not just for the Ryan guys but for the profession as a whole.