Military "Escorts"
Thread Starter
Military "Escorts"
The world has gone mad...
THE LIVES of airline passengers are being endangered by armed military jets, which are intercepting and escorting aircraft over France as an anti- terrorism measure, French pilots' unions said yesterday.
The unions said pilots were alarmed by French Air Force Mirage jets taking up position close behind airliners without warning.
"The unions deplore this excessive security, which could endanger the lives of passengers and crew," the unions said. "It is difficult for the pilots when they are in the sights of a combat aircraft."
Mirage 2000 and F1 jets, armed with air-to-air missiles and 30mm cannon, have been escorting airliners several times a day since the French government increased security in late December.
The Mirages are routinely escorting flights arriving from the Middle East, the United States and elsewhere. (©The Times, London)
THE LIVES of airline passengers are being endangered by armed military jets, which are intercepting and escorting aircraft over France as an anti- terrorism measure, French pilots' unions said yesterday.
The unions said pilots were alarmed by French Air Force Mirage jets taking up position close behind airliners without warning.
"The unions deplore this excessive security, which could endanger the lives of passengers and crew," the unions said. "It is difficult for the pilots when they are in the sights of a combat aircraft."
Mirage 2000 and F1 jets, armed with air-to-air missiles and 30mm cannon, have been escorting airliners several times a day since the French government increased security in late December.
The Mirages are routinely escorting flights arriving from the Middle East, the United States and elsewhere. (©The Times, London)
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Thread Creep here people. Bashing the yanks is not what this is about.
If it becoming a regular thing for the French AF to intercept civilian airliners for a)practice or b) cos they want to then there must be a protocol. If it happened to me and I had not been told I would co-ordinate avoiding action with ATC and file Airprox and an ASR when on the ground. I accept they are highly trained but it is unacceptable that they can breach the 1000' and 5 miles envelope so brazenly. I think the possibility of them bumping into us is much greater than loosing an Sidewinder into the No2. It doesn't take much of a mistake when joining a formation to seriously screw things and he's got a bang seat, I ain't. Fingers crossed, direct BAMES.
Oh, I would DEFINITELY give him the finger too.
If it becoming a regular thing for the French AF to intercept civilian airliners for a)practice or b) cos they want to then there must be a protocol. If it happened to me and I had not been told I would co-ordinate avoiding action with ATC and file Airprox and an ASR when on the ground. I accept they are highly trained but it is unacceptable that they can breach the 1000' and 5 miles envelope so brazenly. I think the possibility of them bumping into us is much greater than loosing an Sidewinder into the No2. It doesn't take much of a mistake when joining a formation to seriously screw things and he's got a bang seat, I ain't. Fingers crossed, direct BAMES.
Oh, I would DEFINITELY give him the finger too.
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Just how does it endanger the passengers' lives to be escorted by highly trained military aircrew in state-of-the-art equipment, operated in accordance with internationally recognised regulations in their own airspace?
Fighter escort in close proximity to civil aircraft - small but real chance of a collision.
Fighter escort nowhere near the civil aircraft -absolutely no chance of a collision.
That's how.
SoS
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Just curious
SOS,
Have you had the opportunity (after years of training, of course) to employ your fighter/interceptor in a standard vanilla intercept profile to a stern conversion into an observation position?
Have you had the opportunity (after years of training, of course) to employ your fighter/interceptor in a standard vanilla intercept profile to a stern conversion into an observation position?
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SOS,
Walk down the road near an airport = big chance of being killed by a crashing Jumbo jet.
Don't walk down the road near an airport = no chance of being killed by a crashing Jumbo jet.
Therefore stay at home.
Get real.
Walk down the road near an airport = big chance of being killed by a crashing Jumbo jet.
Don't walk down the road near an airport = no chance of being killed by a crashing Jumbo jet.
Therefore stay at home.
Get real.
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Last time i got a mirage next to me i got kindly asked by the controller if that was ok with us. Since we were repositionning i had no objection. That was between GTQ and GVA in the 370's or something like that.
Cheers
Cheers
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I'm saying it's a no-brainer
>No.
>Are you trying to say that accidents never happen?
>SoS
How do fighters join up after an in-trail takeoff?
Intercept.
How does a formation of fighters join up with a refueling tanker? Intercept.
How do fighters rejoin after the "knock-it-off", or after a successful "bug-out?"
Intercept.
It is, to those that operate such aircraft for a living, a no-brainer...especially with the restrictions (ROE) imposed on such operations.
>Are you trying to say that accidents never happen?
>SoS
How do fighters join up after an in-trail takeoff?
Intercept.
How does a formation of fighters join up with a refueling tanker? Intercept.
How do fighters rejoin after the "knock-it-off", or after a successful "bug-out?"
Intercept.
It is, to those that operate such aircraft for a living, a no-brainer...especially with the restrictions (ROE) imposed on such operations.
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No brainer?
I did fly them long time ago... NOTHING in aviation is a no brainer!!
Now that i am flyiing civil a/c i dont want anyone military or civil approaching my ac WITHOUT MY PERMISSION ...especially when there is someone with no brain on board... else i will defenately file a report...
Now that i am flyiing civil a/c i dont want anyone military or civil approaching my ac WITHOUT MY PERMISSION ...especially when there is someone with no brain on board... else i will defenately file a report...
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Logic..............
Logic is leading where nobody would have gone:
1- Because of lack of security at airport, we have to embark anykind of Airmarshalls who are not under captain authority...
2- Because they may fail in stopping terrorists to take control of the plane with the risk of thousands dead, we can now be "escorted" by any fighter of any nationality, whose mission is in fact to kill us our crew and passengers if we drift from the flight plan.
It's only a matter of time before the real thing happens
Comprehensive insurance will pay your widow, or maybe this will be covered by concerned government.
1- Because of lack of security at airport, we have to embark anykind of Airmarshalls who are not under captain authority...
2- Because they may fail in stopping terrorists to take control of the plane with the risk of thousands dead, we can now be "escorted" by any fighter of any nationality, whose mission is in fact to kill us our crew and passengers if we drift from the flight plan.
It's only a matter of time before the real thing happens
Comprehensive insurance will pay your widow, or maybe this will be covered by concerned government.
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And the ROE is?
vunzke,
I agree that I would like to know if I have been ordered to be escorted. I would also appreciate the status of the intercept (reverse BRA would be nice). Normally, in most areas, I don't think they could get very close without my knowing it...TCAS and all. In less peaceful areas of the world, a no squawk, no lights intercept and ID could happen and be over with, and I'd never know it.
Such intercepts are typically ordered from a command center (not at the whim of a bored aviator). What could I do if I was advised that a country's national defense command center has decided I should be intercepted? I can follow the outlined procedures.
No doubt, though. Communication of the event, as it unfolds, would be nice for all involved
I agree that I would like to know if I have been ordered to be escorted. I would also appreciate the status of the intercept (reverse BRA would be nice). Normally, in most areas, I don't think they could get very close without my knowing it...TCAS and all. In less peaceful areas of the world, a no squawk, no lights intercept and ID could happen and be over with, and I'd never know it.
Such intercepts are typically ordered from a command center (not at the whim of a bored aviator). What could I do if I was advised that a country's national defense command center has decided I should be intercepted? I can follow the outlined procedures.
No doubt, though. Communication of the event, as it unfolds, would be nice for all involved
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Small matter of a Dash 8 of Ncl. Intercepted by Sea Harrier under "control" of sea defence system.
In IMC talking to nobody that anyone else could, the Sea Harrier approached so close that the DH8 did a max rate climb on TCAS RA. Both engines required removal on landing in Norvege.
Of course there was no risk ..... to the Sea Harrier.
In IMC talking to nobody that anyone else could, the Sea Harrier approached so close that the DH8 did a max rate climb on TCAS RA. Both engines required removal on landing in Norvege.
Of course there was no risk ..... to the Sea Harrier.
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Sitting at the top of the French hill I have seen and spoken to a/c that are/have been intercepted by the Military. In ALL cases I check that the pilot is/was aware and every time have had an AFFIRM reply.
If the interception was for training purposes then every a/c was ASKED first, and French civil control identify and handover any still intercepted approaching the boundary.
If it wasn't a training situation, then someone isn't speaking to Civil control, so initial RTF failure procedures have been enforced - you can file on being intercepted, they will already have filed back for loss of communications. All will be investigated together and the reason for the lack of communications sought.
None of the interceptions will interfere with TCAS RA's as Mode C on the fighter is disabled. You could get a TA, but the way in which interceptions normally occur, TCAS will assess 'no risk'.
Arran's view - when and where did this incident occur?
If the interception was for training purposes then every a/c was ASKED first, and French civil control identify and handover any still intercepted approaching the boundary.
If it wasn't a training situation, then someone isn't speaking to Civil control, so initial RTF failure procedures have been enforced - you can file on being intercepted, they will already have filed back for loss of communications. All will be investigated together and the reason for the lack of communications sought.
None of the interceptions will interfere with TCAS RA's as Mode C on the fighter is disabled. You could get a TA, but the way in which interceptions normally occur, TCAS will assess 'no risk'.
Arran's view - when and where did this incident occur?
One major point: They have bang seats, we do not!
Basil
(ex mil, done close formation - knew some guys who collided their Canberras because one thought he'd just ease back into position after losing contact in cloud)
Basil
(ex mil, done close formation - knew some guys who collided their Canberras because one thought he'd just ease back into position after losing contact in cloud)
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"Escort"..........NO !!!!!
It seems a few of us still don't understand that these "escort" are planned to wipe us of the air, if someone, somewhere, relaying on any kind of intelligence or no intelligence at all, decided our plane is a kind of missile he is entitled to hit.
While diving to Hell or up to the paradise, you would thank Dubya first, then Jackie, then anyone of their colleagues eager to fight "terrorism".........
While diving to Hell or up to the paradise, you would thank Dubya first, then Jackie, then anyone of their colleagues eager to fight "terrorism".........
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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All getting a bit 'hot under the collar' here!
None of us surely would deny the need for a fully armed interceptor to intercept a threat or potential threat? I did so myself many times in the RAF.
What IS the problem is the perception that not all the intercepts are really NECESSARY, but some may be 'for training' or even for nationalistic/political reasons (see previous thread on this subject).
There is also no need for 'close' position keeping if a threat is 'perceived' - a position a few miles away would be more than adequate for reaction if necessary.
Any interception is POTENTIALLY dangerous. There is a history of inadvertent missile 'kills' (RAF Phantom/Jaguar 'confirmed'!) and a near disaster in the 70's off the UK coast, and the threat of collision is ever present, as witnessed by another RAF incident I know about (Lightning/Aztec), and if interception/formation was SO foolproof for skilled pilots.........................
So, my shout is - let it happen when it is necessary, eg R/T failure, lost contact, off course, hijack etc etc, and not as an apparent 'routine'?
None of us surely would deny the need for a fully armed interceptor to intercept a threat or potential threat? I did so myself many times in the RAF.
What IS the problem is the perception that not all the intercepts are really NECESSARY, but some may be 'for training' or even for nationalistic/political reasons (see previous thread on this subject).
There is also no need for 'close' position keeping if a threat is 'perceived' - a position a few miles away would be more than adequate for reaction if necessary.
Any interception is POTENTIALLY dangerous. There is a history of inadvertent missile 'kills' (RAF Phantom/Jaguar 'confirmed'!) and a near disaster in the 70's off the UK coast, and the threat of collision is ever present, as witnessed by another RAF incident I know about (Lightning/Aztec), and if interception/formation was SO foolproof for skilled pilots.........................
So, my shout is - let it happen when it is necessary, eg R/T failure, lost contact, off course, hijack etc etc, and not as an apparent 'routine'?
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Arran's view:
Say again? I didn't hear about that, when did this happen? Who was operating the -8? Can you point me to the report?
Thanks
R 1
...the DH8 did a max rate climb on TCAS RA. Both engines required removal on landing in Norvege.
Thanks
R 1
Last summer climbing through 3000 feet from ZTH towards LATAN, I got a TCAS on a Phantom flying at 5000 feet VFR crossing left to right. I had the Phantom visual and at no stage was there any danger of a collision.
Passing 4000feet with the Phantom now at 2 miles distance the TCAS gave ‘DESCEND DESCEND’. In accordance with my SOPs I closed the power leavers and started to fly the aeroplane into a descent. At this very moment the Phantom turned towards me and descended, causing the TCAS to shout ‘CLIMB CLIMB’. The power leavers now went to the fire wall and the aeroplane flown into a nose up attitude. The Phantom passed 400 feet beneath me, and waggled his wings in greeting.
If I could have got my hands on that fighter pilot I would have waggled more than just a finger!
I filed a report more in the hope that the fighter pilot could be traced and the problems that he had caused me pointed out to him, but as usual in the South East Med., nothing came of it. Please, if you fly a military jet, unless you are fully aware of what you are doing, stay away from large passenger aeroplanes.
Passing 4000feet with the Phantom now at 2 miles distance the TCAS gave ‘DESCEND DESCEND’. In accordance with my SOPs I closed the power leavers and started to fly the aeroplane into a descent. At this very moment the Phantom turned towards me and descended, causing the TCAS to shout ‘CLIMB CLIMB’. The power leavers now went to the fire wall and the aeroplane flown into a nose up attitude. The Phantom passed 400 feet beneath me, and waggled his wings in greeting.
If I could have got my hands on that fighter pilot I would have waggled more than just a finger!
I filed a report more in the hope that the fighter pilot could be traced and the problems that he had caused me pointed out to him, but as usual in the South East Med., nothing came of it. Please, if you fly a military jet, unless you are fully aware of what you are doing, stay away from large passenger aeroplanes.
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I was intercepted/ escorted last year by two Mirage 2000s.
Quite startling at first, he was close off the left side. Nothing on Guard, No advisory from Paris Control until I asked and then they told me to proceed.
Got TA on one guy on my tail and nothing on Lead. I pulled out my camera and got a shot of Lead off my 9 o'clock. He got pissed and pulled off and did a nice roll over us to the right side. Also took a shot of the fish finder (TCAS) with the wingman on my six (shoulda dump fuel and showed them
) Still have the pictures.
There were no RA and no altitude reporting from these Mirages on the display. Actually, Lead was never on the display not even an open diamond. We got the escorts all the way to landing. Beautiful VFR day, they showed up after about 50 nm feet dry north of Marsaille.
We must have looked pretty interesting to all the other airliners crisscrossing the sky.
Me - L1011, Them - 2 Mirage 2000s.
1 v. 2
Quite startling at first, he was close off the left side. Nothing on Guard, No advisory from Paris Control until I asked and then they told me to proceed.
Got TA on one guy on my tail and nothing on Lead. I pulled out my camera and got a shot of Lead off my 9 o'clock. He got pissed and pulled off and did a nice roll over us to the right side. Also took a shot of the fish finder (TCAS) with the wingman on my six (shoulda dump fuel and showed them
) Still have the pictures.There were no RA and no altitude reporting from these Mirages on the display. Actually, Lead was never on the display not even an open diamond. We got the escorts all the way to landing. Beautiful VFR day, they showed up after about 50 nm feet dry north of Marsaille.
We must have looked pretty interesting to all the other airliners crisscrossing the sky.
Me - L1011, Them - 2 Mirage 2000s.
1 v. 2
