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Flash Airlines B737 Crash in Egypt

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Flash Airlines B737 Crash in Egypt

Old 4th Jan 2004, 19:36
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Can a lawyer type let me know the legislation/international
law regarding who has accss to the CVR/FDR in this case.
After the Egyptians have pawed the thing do Boeing have a legal
right to have access to the data?.....one would hope so
to keep a level of transparency in the inquiry and more importantly so evrybody can learn from this tragic event.
Xshong
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 20:20
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Parties to the crash investigation will include the French (their pax), representatives of airline, manufacturers of the airframe, engines, etc. and the lead agency will be the Egyptians, as it was on their territory. The CVR and DFDR are legally under the jurisidiction of the lead agency for the life of the investigation after which they revert to the owners of the plane. So, Boeing will be there and will have direct access to the boxes. The actual real investigative donkey work will be done by Bureau Enquetes Accidents, who will also be responsible for the read-outs of the boxes. All the parties to the investigation will get the raw information from the recorders, but what reaches the public domain will be up to the Egyptians.

The alleged engine-change and the Swiss ban on Flash seem the most interesting straws in the wind regarding the causes of this tragedy so far.
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 20:23
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Operated through Sharm on Thursday afternoon (1st January).

Air Safety Network (who are normally accurate with their facts) report the aircraft as taking off from either 22L or 22R. I would suggest 22R as we have never operated off the south runway in all the time I have been going there.

Radar has only recently been installed at Sharm. In a non-radar environment the normal departure off either runway (for aircraft heading to the north) is to go straight ahead for about three miles and then do a climbing turn over the sea back to the Sharm (SHM) VOR.

Air Safety Network reports the aircraft as reaching a height of about 5000' before control was lost which suggests that it was well into the turn and probably heading back to the VOR (but still over the sea).

An Italian news agency is reporting the aircraft as operating 4 sectors on Friday 2 January from Sharm to Turin and Sharm to Venice. On arrival back at Sharm it only spent a short time on the ground before departing for Cairo and CDG.

A Flash B733 was parked at Sharm Thursday evening as we taxied out for a 04L departure.
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 20:30
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Question A history of problems?

BBC Says 737 has a Checkered History

The BBC are running a story now with this headline? They are saying that there is a history of rudder problems and engine failures on the 737.
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 20:37
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Sad story - my thoughts

Question: Dosn't the NTSB automatically become involved when a US made aircraft has an accident/incident, or am i wrong ? Or need they be "requested for help" by the particular country ?
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 20:37
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Yet again it seems that Ruskin's dictum prevails in aviation, as in his caveat emptor for the retail world.

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only, are that man's lawful prey".

Beware cheap tickets. They may have a hidden price.
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 20:46
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Flash Air Crash

Deep condolences to the families of those who died. It is too premature to say if it was an accident or a terrorist attack......the degree of tragidy remains the same. Airlines and Charter companies are quick to "DEFEND" their business interests although either which way I do't understand how terming it an accident would save the company's reputation.
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 20:48
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Hi i'm form venice (italy); the last (safe) trip of the 737 crashed was from venice to sharm
In our morning newspapers such as in our local tv, passengers boarded in venice are saying that the plane waws litteraly falling in pieces: during the flight some panels of the ceiling fell down, in some rows the seats were fixed with iron wire; the cabin and the toiltes were absolutely filthy; some seats had no arm rests
the same plane in october 2002 got a problem during a flight form sharm to blq: over agean sea the left engin collapsed and she was forced to make an emergency landing in athens

_______________________________________________

This was posted on airliners.net
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 21:30
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Arrow

Turbo Rick : 10 points ! although meant as an example ( an unlikely event especially seen the dep time . ) but valid remark !

Something else : seen on TV a visu of the radar track ( the Sharm radar was apparently diverted to Cairo and recorded ) climb to 4800 ft without problem then abrupt near 180 degr turn and a dive descent , end of recording and presumably crash 17 seconds later. But impossible to verify if this is the correct version or a journalist made up scenario. so caution.
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 21:58
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Swiss Television reports that Flash Air had been banned from Swiss Airspace by the FOCA, following surprise visit on airplane in Kloten in Oct 02.
No reason given.
Any information?

Last edited by sottens; 4th Jan 2004 at 23:10.
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Old 4th Jan 2004, 22:44
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weasil, Usual know-it-all nonsence by ignorant passengers. The "missing" arm rests are probably those on the window side of the emergency exits!

jpsingh , I think the "accident" statement was made by government officials worried that any terrorist connection would harm their already weakened tourist traffic. Egypt's economy depends a great deal on tourism.
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 01:15
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No reason given.
"During a routine inspection by BAZL (Bundesamtes für Zivilluftfahrt) we discovered that the airline was a danger to aviation security," said Celestine Perissinotto, a spokeswoman for the Swiss Federal Office for Civil Aviation.

The arguments most commonly set out now show that it was simply a loss of power. One of the 2 Flash Air 737's recently made an emergency landing at ATH with an exploded engine. Dunno whether it was the same.
 
Old 5th Jan 2004, 01:32
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Avman ... weasil's re-post may not, of itself, indicate anything really crashworthy. No airplane goes down because the seats are wired to the floor, or ceiling panels start dropping on pax' heads, etc. But taken with the "you're not flying over our [Swiss] airspace" post, you wonder if it's starting to be indicative of something really big.
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 01:53
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How many sectors had the crew flown that day??
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 01:55
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Question: Dosn't the NTSB automatically become involved when a US made aircraft has an accident/incident, or am i wrong ? Or need they be "requested for help" by the particular country ?
Under ICAO Annex 13 (which all concerned are signatories) The NTSB will be invited and no doubt accept as the country of manufacture and design of the aircraft as well as the powerplants (how else to address real airworthiness concerns).

The french BEA will also be invited and no doubt accept as their citizens were involved.

Boeing and GE may be invited by any of the parties as technical rxpert assistance. However they as technical experts may not have access to all factual information as the formal parties (BEA and NTSB).

There is little likihood of any witholding of any factual information between parties simply because of Annex 13 principals

The greater concern would be bickeing among the parties about the significance and interpretation of the available facts or the need for extraordinary wreckage recovery efforts.

However, issues associated with crew discipline and operation of the airline under regulatory oversight may be kept to the Egyptians and not be open to the other parties.

Rest assured, defects in the equipment, if any, will be addressed. Defects in operation or crew training are unlikely to get top billing in the press due to their subjective nature among the parties.
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 02:33
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I have seen news reports now stating that there was a second 'positioning' crew on board the a/c. So the reports about 13 crew members being involved may be correct.
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 03:43
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lomapaseo, perhaps I misunderstand you here but the aircraft was US built but aren't all 737-300s powered by French built CFM56s?
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 04:15
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Re CFM56

The Power of Teamwork
The CFM family of engines proves there is power in teamwork. The 50/50 collaboration with French engine-maker Snecma Moteurs is nearly 30 years strong. The engines produced are technologically sophisticated market leaders in every category in which they compete. More than 13,500 are in service with more than 350 customers around the world.
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/cfm56/
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 04:19
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Some hard facts.

Braathens did some MX on the aircraft some 13 months ago and considered it as in a good shape. Braathens can't state on the engines, didn't touch them.
One Norvegian passengers did file an complaint with the Norvegian CAA that this company had seats without seat bealts. This lead Norvegian Tour Operators not to contract Flash anymore.

One of Flash 737 had an emergency landing at Geneva Airport beginning of 2003 (despite it was banned from Swiss airspace), following the one in Athens (end of 2002).

Swiss airworthiness inspectors work in conjunction with SAFA and both France and Italy were notified about the reserve on Flash. France deny, the socialist party (opposition) acknowledges and the Italians are querrying.........
 
Old 5th Jan 2004, 04:19
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Hooded

Good point. GE is only one of the designer manufacturers of the CFM56 engine. No doubt SNECMA will support this investigation.

These partner projects are harder to predict but hopefully one of their experts will always be there to assist as needed.
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