Flying B737-800 and -200 together?
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Flying B737-800 and -200 together?
I noted with interest the comments about mixed fleet flying on th Airbus 32/33 series.
Our company operates a fleet of B737-200 Advanced and have just placed an order for B737-800's. They want us to fly BOTH a/c concurrently and operate them as a common fleet.
The EFIS on the -800 has been "dummed down", from the PFD/ND to an EFIS/MAP display(which depicts round, analogue primary flight instruments and a map display on EFIS).
The feedback from those who have alredy completed the differences course in Seattle is mixed and I reserve my opinion until I have 'got the T-shirt'.
Many of you out there in Europe and the USA have obviously either been through this exercise, or currently have experience about this.
Is it possible, plausible and, ultimately, safe to operate these to a/c as one fleet?
Our company operates a fleet of B737-200 Advanced and have just placed an order for B737-800's. They want us to fly BOTH a/c concurrently and operate them as a common fleet.
The EFIS on the -800 has been "dummed down", from the PFD/ND to an EFIS/MAP display(which depicts round, analogue primary flight instruments and a map display on EFIS).
The feedback from those who have alredy completed the differences course in Seattle is mixed and I reserve my opinion until I have 'got the T-shirt'.
Many of you out there in Europe and the USA have obviously either been through this exercise, or currently have experience about this.
Is it possible, plausible and, ultimately, safe to operate these to a/c as one fleet?
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Our company went through a similar exercise with the 200 and 300.
The final decision was not to fly both types together mainly because of the lack of alt capture on the 200.
I understand there are 200's with a more advanced autopilot which do have alt capture and are more suited to the mixed fleet operation.
The final decision was not to fly both types together mainly because of the lack of alt capture on the 200.
I understand there are 200's with a more advanced autopilot which do have alt capture and are more suited to the mixed fleet operation.
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Does this Mixed Fleet Flying have any benefits for pilots at all? Is it only company benefit and how much will it be ?
Can anybody point me to a company where this really works out? Are they mainly operating as with Airbus or Boeing planes ? What do you reckon as valuable size for this concept ?
Just curious for future perspectives. That's all !
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There are considerable variations between 737's of the same series number. The British Airways 737-200 has a full Sperry dual autopilot and PDCS which is considerably more advanced than your basic 737-200.
With the Airbus on the other hand you would be hard pushed to see any immdediate differences between an A320 cockpit and an A330 cockpit, yet the A330 is a considerably larger aircraft. You fly them both in exactly the same way as well. The A330 has a little more momentum on the approach, a higher flare height and your sat further forward of the nosewheel for taxying. That is it!
As has been pointed out in other threads Airbus have got it right on this one. Boeing are still in the dark ages.
With the Airbus on the other hand you would be hard pushed to see any immdediate differences between an A320 cockpit and an A330 cockpit, yet the A330 is a considerably larger aircraft. You fly them both in exactly the same way as well. The A330 has a little more momentum on the approach, a higher flare height and your sat further forward of the nosewheel for taxying. That is it!
As has been pointed out in other threads Airbus have got it right on this one. Boeing are still in the dark ages.
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Thanks all for your input. Just to clarify:
Currently, we operate 3 types of aicraft on our short-to-medium range services; namely, a mixture of B737-200 Advanced (with Dual channel, Cat IIIa Autoflight, PDCS, GPS, P&W JT8D-17A Engines); Airbus A300's and Airbus A320's. The company wants to rationalise our fleet into ONE type, which, after many months of competitive bidding between Airbus and Boeing, has ended up in the order of 21 B737-800's to be operated as a common fleet with the -200advanced.
The advantages to the company are a single short/medium range fleet with one set of instructors, check pilots, rostering & admin staff, schedulers, parts & other maintenance considerations and a more efficient fleet operation on the whole.
The advantages to the pilots, so far, are only the anticipation of extra command requirements, speeding up the advancement process. I can't think of any more. Can anyone else?
My question is, can these two different, yet similar, a/c be operated as one fleet?
Currently, we operate 3 types of aicraft on our short-to-medium range services; namely, a mixture of B737-200 Advanced (with Dual channel, Cat IIIa Autoflight, PDCS, GPS, P&W JT8D-17A Engines); Airbus A300's and Airbus A320's. The company wants to rationalise our fleet into ONE type, which, after many months of competitive bidding between Airbus and Boeing, has ended up in the order of 21 B737-800's to be operated as a common fleet with the -200advanced.
The advantages to the company are a single short/medium range fleet with one set of instructors, check pilots, rostering & admin staff, schedulers, parts & other maintenance considerations and a more efficient fleet operation on the whole.
The advantages to the pilots, so far, are only the anticipation of extra command requirements, speeding up the advancement process. I can't think of any more. Can anyone else?
My question is, can these two different, yet similar, a/c be operated as one fleet?
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Peter_US, you asked :
"Can anybody point me to a company where this really works out?"
I recently jumpseated with Ryanair. We sat on the tarmac for 90 minutes so ample time for chat, and one of the things the pilots told me was about how they fly a mix of 737's.
If you want to know what it's like, contacting them seems a good idea.
"Can anybody point me to a company where this really works out?"
I recently jumpseated with Ryanair. We sat on the tarmac for 90 minutes so ample time for chat, and one of the things the pilots told me was about how they fly a mix of 737's.
If you want to know what it's like, contacting them seems a good idea.
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In our company as well in KLM there is enough experience with mixed-flying.
The 800 looks like an 737, but handles differently, its heavier, longer and has different performance.
It is perhaps a simple comparison, but flying the 200 is like having an analogue wrist-watch, while flying the 800 is like having a digital one...
I like flying the 800 very much especially flying PFD&ND, we had some experience with EFIS MAP during certification in Seattle but I find it a waste. We and KLM are mixing 300(EFIS/MAP) with 800 (PFD/ND) and it is possible as long as you are very, very carefull, Good luck...
The 800 looks like an 737, but handles differently, its heavier, longer and has different performance.
It is perhaps a simple comparison, but flying the 200 is like having an analogue wrist-watch, while flying the 800 is like having a digital one...
I like flying the 800 very much especially flying PFD&ND, we had some experience with EFIS MAP during certification in Seattle but I find it a waste. We and KLM are mixing 300(EFIS/MAP) with 800 (PFD/ND) and it is possible as long as you are very, very carefull, Good luck...
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The largest 737 operator in the world operates over 315+ 200/300/500/700 aircraft in a common fleet. Southwest Airlines.
I disagree with some of our procedures in relation to automation and the dumbing down of the 3/5/7 fleet to make it compatible with the 200's. We operate without VNAV and autothrottles and have no EFIS 300/500 aircraft. The 700 depicts steam gauges and has a map diplay on the right pilot display unit. The management regularly states that they want our pilots "in the loop" and hand flying the jet and staying in touch with the situation at hand. My opinon is that we could handle the difference and the reason is found in "old school" thinking on managements part.
I flew a "full up" EFIS 300 and both advanced and basic 200 models while at America West. I had little trouble transitioning between the types. I look to the fact that I fly several civilian jets and props on my days off and I seem to keep them straight.....just have to brief the differences before operating them.
The -200's are going to go to a Texas base when the numbers get down to around 25 units for company convienence. We currently operate over 40 units today.
I disagree with some of our procedures in relation to automation and the dumbing down of the 3/5/7 fleet to make it compatible with the 200's. We operate without VNAV and autothrottles and have no EFIS 300/500 aircraft. The 700 depicts steam gauges and has a map diplay on the right pilot display unit. The management regularly states that they want our pilots "in the loop" and hand flying the jet and staying in touch with the situation at hand. My opinon is that we could handle the difference and the reason is found in "old school" thinking on managements part.
I flew a "full up" EFIS 300 and both advanced and basic 200 models while at America West. I had little trouble transitioning between the types. I look to the fact that I fly several civilian jets and props on my days off and I seem to keep them straight.....just have to brief the differences before operating them.
The -200's are going to go to a Texas base when the numbers get down to around 25 units for company convienence. We currently operate over 40 units today.
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In Ryanair we are not rated to fly both the 200 and 800. They are operated as two seperate fleets. This has led to increased costs and rumours suggest that the 200's may be replaced by some second-hand 400's. This would restore the one fleet situation.
We currently operate 20 200's. Eight were bought from Lufthansa. These are CAT 3a certified with dual Sperry SP177 autopilots. The rest are a mixture of CAT 2 certified ex-Britannia and Transavia aircraft with Sperry SP77 autopilots (no altitude cpature). We have one ex-Dan Air 200 (EI-CJI) which has an SP77 autopilot with altitude capture.
Pilots are allowed to fly all of the 200's but our six-monthly PC's are alternated between the SP77 sim in Dublin and the SP177 sim in Heathrow.
With the phasing out of the 200's over the next few years I doubt if we will ever get to fly the 200 and 800 together.
We currently operate 20 200's. Eight were bought from Lufthansa. These are CAT 3a certified with dual Sperry SP177 autopilots. The rest are a mixture of CAT 2 certified ex-Britannia and Transavia aircraft with Sperry SP77 autopilots (no altitude cpature). We have one ex-Dan Air 200 (EI-CJI) which has an SP77 autopilot with altitude capture.
Pilots are allowed to fly all of the 200's but our six-monthly PC's are alternated between the SP77 sim in Dublin and the SP177 sim in Heathrow.
With the phasing out of the 200's over the next few years I doubt if we will ever get to fly the 200 and 800 together.
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Furthermore, good training is the issue here, good training and exposure. We do a lot more than the minimum required training advertised by the manufacturer. We do 3 days groundschool, CBT and performance and 4 sim sessions,including the JAR-FCL Checkride.
This is followed by 4 Linetraining flights and 1 linecheck.
Then for some time you are dedicated to NG-aircraft. After this time mixing is allowed by the CAA when enough exposure on both types can be maintained.
Safety is no accident....
This is followed by 4 Linetraining flights and 1 linecheck.
Then for some time you are dedicated to NG-aircraft. After this time mixing is allowed by the CAA when enough exposure on both types can be maintained.
Safety is no accident....
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GLOBAL_AV8OR
Advise to look at : http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/005385.html
for some thoughts. !
Advise to look at : http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/005385.html
for some thoughts. !
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Hi all
Thanks for the e-mails and replies, Peter_US thanks for the link.
But I have to wonder, is this all we can get from people with 737 experience? Surely some of our US based firends must have more to offer on this topic?
Please! - let all your friends, with the appropriate experience, know that we would like to hear from them and hear their opinions.
Keep it safe out there...
Thanks for the e-mails and replies, Peter_US thanks for the link.
But I have to wonder, is this all we can get from people with 737 experience? Surely some of our US based firends must have more to offer on this topic?
Please! - let all your friends, with the appropriate experience, know that we would like to hear from them and hear their opinions.
Keep it safe out there...
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Hi all
Any more comments on this subjects from those with previous experience on this type of operation? Some comment from any of our fellow aviators at SOUTHWEST would be appreciated.
Any of the guys in our company that are alredy flying the line and have flown both types recently - give us some insight, please.
Thanks!
Keep it safe out there.
Any more comments on this subjects from those with previous experience on this type of operation? Some comment from any of our fellow aviators at SOUTHWEST would be appreciated.
Any of the guys in our company that are alredy flying the line and have flown both types recently - give us some insight, please.
Thanks!
Keep it safe out there.
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Hello everyone, it's my first time here.
My airline operates B737-300, -400, -700 and sometimes -500 for a subsidiary with the same type rating and crew. The basic problem is: How can we keep proficiency flying those airplanes since we have more than 40 -300, 4 -400 and just 5 -700? It's very difficult to balance flying hours among pilots and planes. Sometimes we wait more than 2 or 3 months to fly a NG. It's not easy to keep any pilot updated with the differences waiting for an opportunity to fly a "new model". Can anyone give some opinion about training and resource used to improve pilot skills and knowledge, in your airline?
Thank you...
My airline operates B737-300, -400, -700 and sometimes -500 for a subsidiary with the same type rating and crew. The basic problem is: How can we keep proficiency flying those airplanes since we have more than 40 -300, 4 -400 and just 5 -700? It's very difficult to balance flying hours among pilots and planes. Sometimes we wait more than 2 or 3 months to fly a NG. It's not easy to keep any pilot updated with the differences waiting for an opportunity to fly a "new model". Can anyone give some opinion about training and resource used to improve pilot skills and knowledge, in your airline?
Thank you...
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BA 737 pilots are nearly all 'dual' rated on the 737. The -200 is a separate rating. Once you get the -400 rating (from the CAA) it also qualifies you to fly the 300,500,600,700 and 800.
Within BA there are 200, 300, 400 and 500 series a/c. There are even some differences between the different types of -400. i.e.-4Q8,-436,-4SQ. However the CAA seem to be happy with this situation!!!
Within BA there are 200, 300, 400 and 500 series a/c. There are even some differences between the different types of -400. i.e.-4Q8,-436,-4SQ. However the CAA seem to be happy with this situation!!!
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I was chatting to an EasyJet crew on a jumpseat ride about the forthcoming delivery of the 737NG, and they said that the CAA would not allow EZY to operate three different 737 cockpits - some of EZY's 737-300s have 'clockwork' cockpits. I think these aircraft were from Southwest (the WN a/c only have a single FMC as well!) and Monarch. If Stelios wanted to operate the NG and the glass -300, the clockwork cockpits had to go, and they have now left the fleet, or are for sale.
So much for Boeing's assertion that the 737-3/4/500 and NG is a single type, the CAA don't even consider two different versions of the -300 to be similar enough to fly alongside each other, at least, not at an airline of EasyJet's stature.
(I'm sure I mentioned this before, hope it's not on the same thread from a few months ago. D'oh!)
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So much for Boeing's assertion that the 737-3/4/500 and NG is a single type, the CAA don't even consider two different versions of the -300 to be similar enough to fly alongside each other, at least, not at an airline of EasyJet's stature.
(I'm sure I mentioned this before, hope it's not on the same thread from a few months ago. D'oh!)
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Cedarjet- eJ have NO fully clockwork 737's-- just a couple of a/c with clockwork engine gauges. ALL a/c have dual FMC's and are Cat 111a equipped. We are told that the older 737's with the auto/man VHF nav setups will progressively be sold odd as the -700's arrive. Once that is done we wil just have a mix of quite new -300's and the 700's.