747 Crash @ Lagos
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Very simple really,
airborn at night you have to have fuel to get to the ex French protectorates or you don`t go there.
You do not rely on anything. I have bribed atc there from FL250 in the hold but that info is on a need to know basis only.
Gave a brief on radio to a Swissair A340 pilot who couldn`t compute the procedural approach one day - had to he was in front.
Nobody has mentioned the downwards dip in the only ILS - at 500ft - that has rattled some experienced crew in the go-around whilst visual . . not to mention the pax.
Anyone out there remembers the poor sod in the bamboo cage west side of NAF base ?
Not a figment of any imagination,
Be good now girls
Sorry ladies
forgot to mention, the Lagos VOR isn`t exactly where it`s supposed to be. Who`d have thought it
airborn at night you have to have fuel to get to the ex French protectorates or you don`t go there.
You do not rely on anything. I have bribed atc there from FL250 in the hold but that info is on a need to know basis only.
Gave a brief on radio to a Swissair A340 pilot who couldn`t compute the procedural approach one day - had to he was in front.
Nobody has mentioned the downwards dip in the only ILS - at 500ft - that has rattled some experienced crew in the go-around whilst visual . . not to mention the pax.
Anyone out there remembers the poor sod in the bamboo cage west side of NAF base ?
Not a figment of any imagination,
Be good now girls
Sorry ladies
forgot to mention, the Lagos VOR isn`t exactly where it`s supposed to be. Who`d have thought it
Topman, I think you may need a refresher course in reading comprehension.
It only lost control after it did a single engine missed approach. It did the missed approach because the other aircraft had been cleared to line-up.
No. If the 73 had been holding, the Lear would have completed it's SE approach and landed without incident. Remember, the Lear crashed during the missed approach. It conducted the missed approach because another aircraft was on the runway.
Would you like to be told to line up, knowing that this would cause an accident. The ATC was not correct lining a 73 up ahead of an emergency landing. The proof is in the consequences.
You reckon it was the right thing to do. A smoking crumple of metal would seem to indicate otherwise.
Remember folks, the learjet was on an emergancy approach and infact ended up losing control in the end.
Thus it could so easily have slammed into the 732. Only chance prevented this.
ATC cleared the 732 for take off to facilitate the learjet on finals. The learjet lost control according to this article, which further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ? Wake up
You reckon it was the right thing to do. A smoking crumple of metal would seem to indicate otherwise.
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AerocatS2A,
I am only going on what was meantioned in the thread. If people cant be bothered to mention the exact details of the crash and rather edit their own version than thats their business, but on the description given on this site of what happend, logic kicks in, and logic states that its not safe to have an aircraft waiting by the side of a runway with god knows how many hundreds of passengers on it while a learjet is approaching with only 1 engine. Was the learjet not told about the departing 737 ? Could the learjet pilots not see this ?? Again such vague material on this site and suddenly all get a surprise when one draws logical conclusions ON THE INFORMATION GIVEN. I didnt start this thread about the 737 and learjet accident. Maybe the person who did would have the basic respect to disclose the proper details and respect that people actually died in this crash rather than giving a vague half ass description purposly designed to spark ill comment.
I am only going on what was meantioned in the thread. If people cant be bothered to mention the exact details of the crash and rather edit their own version than thats their business, but on the description given on this site of what happend, logic kicks in, and logic states that its not safe to have an aircraft waiting by the side of a runway with god knows how many hundreds of passengers on it while a learjet is approaching with only 1 engine. Was the learjet not told about the departing 737 ? Could the learjet pilots not see this ?? Again such vague material on this site and suddenly all get a surprise when one draws logical conclusions ON THE INFORMATION GIVEN. I didnt start this thread about the 737 and learjet accident. Maybe the person who did would have the basic respect to disclose the proper details and respect that people actually died in this crash rather than giving a vague half ass description purposly designed to spark ill comment.
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Oh for crying out loud Topman ... I've tried to stay out of this one, but you're making my blood boil with the stupidity of your comments. I don't pretend to be an airline pilot or ATCO, I am a lowly PPL holder with just 75 hours. But even I can understand the basic fact that a Learjet with one engine out can make a perfectly safe landing without endangering another aircraft at the hold. What do you mean "was the Learjet not told about the 737" ??? What could the Learjet pilot DO about it, if it had already been cleared onto the runway? The only answer is "go around" and it is whilst trying to do that with only one engine that aircraft and crew came to grief.
If you're posting with the sole reason of winding people up, I think you've achieved your objective, so why not leave it there and retire?
If you're posting with the sole reason of winding people up, I think you've achieved your objective, so why not leave it there and retire?
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"But even I can understand the basic fact that a Learjet with one engine out can make a perfectly safe landing without endangering another aircraft at the hold"
This being the case why did it go around ???
"What could the Learjet pilot DO about it, if it had already been cleared onto the runway? "
Eh... wait for it to clear the runway ???
This being the case why did it go around ???
"What could the Learjet pilot DO about it, if it had already been cleared onto the runway? "
Eh... wait for it to clear the runway ???
This being the case why did it go around ???
"What could the Learjet pilot DO about it, if it had already been cleared onto the runway? "
Eh... wait for it to clear the runway ???
Eh... wait for it to clear the runway ???
yourself.
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Farkin ijiot
Topman, you are now contradicting yourself!!!
I had an engine failure once in a light twin and returned to the international airport where I had taken off from. I had no pax on board at the time and the engine was shut down, so there were no problems with control etc. When I landed, about 5 to 10 minutes after declaring my problem to the tower, I found out that all aircraft movement was stopped immediately and aircraft were not even allowed to start, let alone line up and take off in front of me, do you not think that courtesy should have been extended to the Lear crew? You are a bloody idiot, just read your own posts to see that.
Now go back to Flightsim and line up in front of whoever you like, and by the way, I am still waiting on an answer for my question from above???
I had an engine failure once in a light twin and returned to the international airport where I had taken off from. I had no pax on board at the time and the engine was shut down, so there were no problems with control etc. When I landed, about 5 to 10 minutes after declaring my problem to the tower, I found out that all aircraft movement was stopped immediately and aircraft were not even allowed to start, let alone line up and take off in front of me, do you not think that courtesy should have been extended to the Lear crew? You are a bloody idiot, just read your own posts to see that.
Now go back to Flightsim and line up in front of whoever you like, and by the way, I am still waiting on an answer for my question from above???
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Could someone please point me to some references about the Learjet crash. I've searched, but can't seem to find anything.
When did this happen, and how come there's been no official mention of it?
When did this happen, and how come there's been no official mention of it?
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topman999
Guys guys guys,
Everyone here (including this low hours private pilot) can clearly see that topman999 is a pilot in his mind only. He is well and truly rumbled. I suggest you just ignore him, as responding to him only encourages his delusions.
MQ.
Everyone here (including this low hours private pilot) can clearly see that topman999 is a pilot in his mind only. He is well and truly rumbled. I suggest you just ignore him, as responding to him only encourages his delusions.
MQ.
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AerocatS2A,
So you have never seen an aircraft on 2 miles final while another aircraft is departing ?
And I am called a ficticious pilot Frankly with my credentials you guys should be graced by my presence, but so many amatuers here to many of you just dont understand. All ahead of you I guess.
So you have never seen an aircraft on 2 miles final while another aircraft is departing ?
And I am called a ficticious pilot
Frankly with my credentials you guys should be graced by my presence, but so many amatuers here to many of you just dont understand. All ahead of you I guess.
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topman999…this is sick.
I very rarely post as I prefer to read and learn; your perseverance to maintain the rightness of your belief in this matter is becoming somewhat distasteful.
The thread originally began with the 747 crash at Lagos after an appalling error by ATC, thankfully not a soul was lost though a great deal of money probably will be.
The discussion then turned to the 737/Lear incident which I have followed with interest; it has been your ramblings which have finally led me to contribute and the fact that lives were lost following an entirely avoidable set of circumstances.
You asked aerocatS2A:
“AerocatS2A,
So you have never seen an aircraft on 2 miles final while another aircraft is departing ?”
The answer he well probably give is that yes he may well have seen an aircraft on 2 miles final while another is departing. The difference will be however is that the arriving aircraft will, in all likelihood, not have a crew trying to contend with a single engine approach (and possibly other system failures). According to various sources, the ATC had 30minutes notification of the Lear emergency. That is 30minutes in which to plan and activate a suitable response. The 737 should never, not ever, have been given permission to line up or depart; not in front of an aircraft trying to operate beyond it’s normal flight envelope. It was the single engine go around which the Lear crew attempted which caused the loss of control, which was directly attributable to the 737 being allowed to enter the active runway for departure.
Now (if you are a pilot) please, for the sake of the crew who lost their lives stop defending the woeful error of judgement on the part of the ATC.
If you are not a pilot and are merely trying to stir, then you are one sick puppy my friend.
I very rarely post as I prefer to read and learn; your perseverance to maintain the rightness of your belief in this matter is becoming somewhat distasteful.
The thread originally began with the 747 crash at Lagos after an appalling error by ATC, thankfully not a soul was lost though a great deal of money probably will be.
The discussion then turned to the 737/Lear incident which I have followed with interest; it has been your ramblings which have finally led me to contribute and the fact that lives were lost following an entirely avoidable set of circumstances.
You asked aerocatS2A:
“AerocatS2A,
So you have never seen an aircraft on 2 miles final while another aircraft is departing ?”
The answer he well probably give is that yes he may well have seen an aircraft on 2 miles final while another is departing. The difference will be however is that the arriving aircraft will, in all likelihood, not have a crew trying to contend with a single engine approach (and possibly other system failures). According to various sources, the ATC had 30minutes notification of the Lear emergency. That is 30minutes in which to plan and activate a suitable response. The 737 should never, not ever, have been given permission to line up or depart; not in front of an aircraft trying to operate beyond it’s normal flight envelope. It was the single engine go around which the Lear crew attempted which caused the loss of control, which was directly attributable to the 737 being allowed to enter the active runway for departure.
Now (if you are a pilot) please, for the sake of the crew who lost their lives stop defending the woeful error of judgement on the part of the ATC.
If you are not a pilot and are merely trying to stir, then you are one sick puppy my friend.
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Topman,
If your knowledge of aviation extends as far as your knowledge of the English language (spelling AND grammar), then you may be forgiven for your fatuous and ignorant stance. Best bail out now.
Bob
PS - Before you go, please just let us know what '744' operator you work for so we can all ensure we'll never to be near one of their a/c, whether on the ground or in the air just in case you're driving. (Or does that '744' have 'Intel Inside' on the tail???? )
Add to 'ignore list' methinks................
If your knowledge of aviation extends as far as your knowledge of the English language (spelling AND grammar), then you may be forgiven for your fatuous and ignorant stance. Best bail out now.
Bob
PS - Before you go, please just let us know what '744' operator you work for so we can all ensure we'll never to be near one of their a/c, whether on the ground or in the air just in case you're driving. (Or does that '744' have 'Intel Inside' on the tail????
)Add to 'ignore list' methinks................
Rotate on this!
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Guys Guys Guys!!!!
Had an a/c cleared for departure with another on ONLY 1.5 mile final just last night.... mind you I was on the same Nintendo game as Topman must have got his hours.
Had an a/c cleared for departure with another on ONLY 1.5 mile final just last night.... mind you I was on the same Nintendo game as Topman must have got his hours.
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Date: 22 JUL 1983
Type: Learjet 25D
Operator: Imani & Sons
Registration: 5N-ASQ
Msn / C/n: 25D-344
Year built:
Crew: 0 fatalities / on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 3 on board
Airplane damage: Written off
Location: Lagos (Nigeria)
Phase:
Nature:
Departure airport:
Destination airport:
Remarks:
Crashed on landing.
Type: Learjet 25D
Operator: Imani & Sons
Registration: 5N-ASQ
Msn / C/n: 25D-344
Year built:
Crew: 0 fatalities / on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 3 on board
Airplane damage: Written off
Location: Lagos (Nigeria)
Phase:
Nature:
Departure airport:
Destination airport:
Remarks:
Crashed on landing.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/1983/830722-0.htm
Not much detail given, but it proves I didn't just make it up.
Nobody killed it says there, but that's not my understanding.
Doesn't change the point anyway.
Lagos ATC = Disaster.
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Lear Jet Crash
The details of the Lear Jet (5N-ASQ) crash as published on Airclaims CASE database are as follows;-
!While en-route from Lagos to Ibadan and in normal cruising flight at FL110, a 'loud rumbling noise' began to come from the right engine and it lost power. The thrust lever for the right engine was retarded and then moved forwards again slowly but the noise then returned together with vibration. The crew shut down the right engine and elected to return to Lagos. The flight back to Lagos was apparently normal until the aircraft was descending through about 1,000ft on final approach to Runway 19L when the left engine reportedly began to surge between idle and maximum power. With no power from the right engine and the left engine surging, the crew found maintaining control of the aircraft very difficult and were unable to keep it lined up on the runway. The aircraft touched down hard, on a heading of 220deg., on a taxiway beside the runway. The aircraft then ran forward, across the compass swing area, down a slope, across a road and eventually came to rest in a rough maize field. The aircraft caught fire and was destroyed. !
If this is correct, looks like they had enough troubles themselves!
!While en-route from Lagos to Ibadan and in normal cruising flight at FL110, a 'loud rumbling noise' began to come from the right engine and it lost power. The thrust lever for the right engine was retarded and then moved forwards again slowly but the noise then returned together with vibration. The crew shut down the right engine and elected to return to Lagos. The flight back to Lagos was apparently normal until the aircraft was descending through about 1,000ft on final approach to Runway 19L when the left engine reportedly began to surge between idle and maximum power. With no power from the right engine and the left engine surging, the crew found maintaining control of the aircraft very difficult and were unable to keep it lined up on the runway. The aircraft touched down hard, on a heading of 220deg., on a taxiway beside the runway. The aircraft then ran forward, across the compass swing area, down a slope, across a road and eventually came to rest in a rough maize field. The aircraft caught fire and was destroyed. !
If this is correct, looks like they had enough troubles themselves!
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I had a simmilar experience of ATC maddness, IMC cleared for the ILS approach into Libreville (correctly named FOOL), 732 Cleared behind me for same approach, problem - I was in a 182 on the way to the USA.
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I'd agree with everything written there except the final reason for loss of control. I saw this accident with my own eyes.
Who did the investigation and wrote the report?
Nigerians perchance?
Who did the investigation and wrote the report?
Nigerians perchance?