747 Crash @ Lagos
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Just to clarify your position then Topman.
You are saying that the action by ATC Lagos in giving permission for an aircraft to line up, when a crippled aircraft was on short finals, was completely OK.
And therefore the subsequent go around on one engine that the Learjet was forced to execute, which resulted in a loss of control and the destruction of the aircraft, and the loss of all lives on board, was entirely normal and represented good industry practice.
Correct?
You are saying that the action by ATC Lagos in giving permission for an aircraft to line up, when a crippled aircraft was on short finals, was completely OK.
And therefore the subsequent go around on one engine that the Learjet was forced to execute, which resulted in a loss of control and the destruction of the aircraft, and the loss of all lives on board, was entirely normal and represented good industry practice.
Correct?
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For the last time,
It is not ideal to line up any aircraft while another aircraft is on 2 mile finals, but the alternative in lagos was to have a 732 holding short of the runway and a potential obstacle to the learjet on finals. Remember folks, the learjet was on an emergancy approach and infact ended up losing control in the end. Thus it could so easily have slammed into the 732. Only chance prevented this. ATC cleared the 732 for take off to facilitate the learjet on finals. The learjet lost control according to this article, which further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ? Wake up
It is not ideal to line up any aircraft while another aircraft is on 2 mile finals, but the alternative in lagos was to have a 732 holding short of the runway and a potential obstacle to the learjet on finals. Remember folks, the learjet was on an emergancy approach and infact ended up losing control in the end. Thus it could so easily have slammed into the 732. Only chance prevented this. ATC cleared the 732 for take off to facilitate the learjet on finals. The learjet lost control according to this article, which further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ? Wake up
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Actually I've got a better solution.
Why didn't they just tell the Learjet to ****** off and crash someplace else?
Perhaps a local scrapyard could have used the bits.
Would've saved a lot of messing about, wouldn't it.
Why didn't they just tell the Learjet to ****** off and crash someplace else?
Perhaps a local scrapyard could have used the bits.
Would've saved a lot of messing about, wouldn't it.
I cannot believe the total and utter crap posted by so-called topman999.
If you were completing a OEI approach in a twin jet ac at 600 ft on final, what possible excuse could you imagine for some dumb idiot moving onto the RW and blocking it - even if a highly dubious air trafficker cleared the movement.....
A late-notice go-around at a critical phase of an emergency is an extremely tricky manoeuvre. I'm not surprised that the Lear had an accident as a result.
Any pilot who thinks that lining up in front of an aeroplane carrying out an emergency approach is in any way acceptable simply doesn't deserve to hold a pilot'slicence of any sort.
Please NOTAM any flights in which you may be involved, topman999, so that the rest of the civilised world can arrange to be elsewhere at the time.
If you were completing a OEI approach in a twin jet ac at 600 ft on final, what possible excuse could you imagine for some dumb idiot moving onto the RW and blocking it - even if a highly dubious air trafficker cleared the movement.....
A late-notice go-around at a critical phase of an emergency is an extremely tricky manoeuvre. I'm not surprised that the Lear had an accident as a result.
Any pilot who thinks that lining up in front of an aeroplane carrying out an emergency approach is in any way acceptable simply doesn't deserve to hold a pilot'slicence of any sort.
Please NOTAM any flights in which you may be involved, topman999, so that the rest of the civilised world can arrange to be elsewhere at the time.
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999
have to agree with the rest mate, you are a twit!
you dont suppose that the LJ crash was the result of... GA power on 1 engine!! and the subsequent loss of control, due assymmetry??
Hold short is just that, hold short, an aircraft is not a factor there,
perhaps you can tell me just how many aircraft on engine out approaches, have missed the runway altogether, and wandered through the hold line??
"further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ?"
that is an unbelievable statement!!! and just how did you know it was going to crash?? oh yeah, cause you were going to try and make it by shoving off directly in front of it!!
I think I, along with everyone else who has read the complete crap you have written, do not for a minute believe you have ever been in control of any aircraft, let alone a transport cat a/c.
You do however, seem perfectly qualified to be a controller at Lagos!
I have flown into Lagos many many times, it is without a doubt the worst controlling I have ever seen, Hyrdo is just their latest victim.
so please do me a favor, 999, shut up!
have to agree with the rest mate, you are a twit!
you dont suppose that the LJ crash was the result of... GA power on 1 engine!! and the subsequent loss of control, due assymmetry??
Hold short is just that, hold short, an aircraft is not a factor there,
perhaps you can tell me just how many aircraft on engine out approaches, have missed the runway altogether, and wandered through the hold line??
"further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ?"
that is an unbelievable statement!!! and just how did you know it was going to crash?? oh yeah, cause you were going to try and make it by shoving off directly in front of it!!
I think I, along with everyone else who has read the complete crap you have written, do not for a minute believe you have ever been in control of any aircraft, let alone a transport cat a/c.
You do however, seem perfectly qualified to be a controller at Lagos!
I have flown into Lagos many many times, it is without a doubt the worst controlling I have ever seen, Hyrdo is just their latest victim.
so please do me a favor, 999, shut up!
In my 29 years in military ATC, any aircraft in emergency was given absolute priority. The rwy was 'sterilized' well before the emergency aircraft was on finals, and other traffic was told to b*gger off until everything was sorted. To line up an aircraft with an emergency at 2 miles beggers belief.
topman!!!!!!!!!!!
topman!!!!!!!!!!!
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Actually folks, just to clarify this further, the Lear had his engine failure about 90NMS OUTBOUND from Lagos on DEPARTURE, so the controllers had probably (at least) 30mins from his turnback to prepare for an emergency landing.
Carry on as usual though, eh.
SNAFU.
Carry on as usual though, eh.
SNAFU.
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Where's 411A when you need him. He would sort this mess out quick smart!
Anyhoo... Ref Hobies comment on a previous page where he refers to financial compensation.......no financial loss to airline.....!
I am sorry matey, but there are two Hope's of Hydro getting a cent from The Nigerian authority, and Bob aint here!
They dont pay for standard airline operations as has been the near or actual demise of several airlines to get sucked into working in Africa.
Even the big boys have been bitten, with carriers like BA and VA getting cash up front in US dollars for any "guaranteed business"!
Not wishing to be the harbinger etc, but I would have to say that that might be the last we see of Hydro for a while.
One last word. Just hope all the crew are well and good and at home! I know a few of them. For the most part total professionals ! I wish them all the best over this (if not so) Merry season.
Anyhoo... Ref Hobies comment on a previous page where he refers to financial compensation.......no financial loss to airline.....!
I am sorry matey, but there are two Hope's of Hydro getting a cent from The Nigerian authority, and Bob aint here!
They dont pay for standard airline operations as has been the near or actual demise of several airlines to get sucked into working in Africa.
Even the big boys have been bitten, with carriers like BA and VA getting cash up front in US dollars for any "guaranteed business"!
Not wishing to be the harbinger etc, but I would have to say that that might be the last we see of Hydro for a while.
One last word. Just hope all the crew are well and good and at home! I know a few of them. For the most part total professionals ! I wish them all the best over this (if not so) Merry season.
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I have the dubious pleasure of operating into LOS very soon, and having never been there before I would be most grateful for a succinct summary of the pitfalls that await.
I get the general idea from postings in this thread, but any and all specifics will be gratefully received.
I get the general idea from postings in this thread, but any and all specifics will be gratefully received.
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Make sure you arrive with LOTS of FUEL!
They have the charming habit of closing an airport without notice for a full hour around the time of a 'VIP' departure. This VIP could anything from el presidente down to some rural chief, or his wife.
Besides that the approach aids (such as they are) go off with regularity, as do the lights!
Be prepared for the worst...as Ernie Gann said...'Always have an out in your back pocket'.
They have the charming habit of closing an airport without notice for a full hour around the time of a 'VIP' departure. This VIP could anything from el presidente down to some rural chief, or his wife.
Besides that the approach aids (such as they are) go off with regularity, as do the lights!
Be prepared for the worst...as Ernie Gann said...'Always have an out in your back pocket'.
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Just back on a sector through Japan. Well, what can I say ! Differing opinions out there in aviation I guess. One can only devise their own conclusions on this. Convenient though how Maxalt changes the particulars of the situation after the debate.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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The persistance in sticking to a dodgy statement/opinion/judgement would seem to indicate the hide of a Rhino, the common sense of a four year old, and the testicals of a bull elephant, unfortunately this combination is generaly considered dangerous in a cockpit or a control tower.
Sorry 999 the opinion you have valiently stuck to does not seem to be the one chosen by the majority here. Perhaps you are in the Nigerian ATC, in which case be advised that it was not thought to be a wise decision and probably only succeeded in excacerbating an already dangerous situation. It piled extra pressure on an already loaded pilot, at a time when he least needed it, and may well have contributed to his death and that of those on board. In short a right pigs ear.
Sorry 999 the opinion you have valiently stuck to does not seem to be the one chosen by the majority here. Perhaps you are in the Nigerian ATC, in which case be advised that it was not thought to be a wise decision and probably only succeeded in excacerbating an already dangerous situation. It piled extra pressure on an already loaded pilot, at a time when he least needed it, and may well have contributed to his death and that of those on board. In short a right pigs ear.
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Or is 999 an industrious TROLL??? Positioning a bit outside "reasonableness", yet near enough as to not be instantly recognized as a troll.... T'would be an odd sense of humour since we're talking of life-or-death situations.
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****
topman, you are a 
wit. I have been reading your ignorant tripe here and had to reply. Any sane (real) pilot would know not to line up in front of an inbound OEI emergency, especially one at 2 miles and 600 feet. The subsequent asymetric go around no doubt contributed heavily, if not completely, to the accident.
The aircraft holding short posed no obstacle whatsoever to the Lear, thats why they paint those yellow lines, they're called Holdpoints, to keep holding aircraft safely clear of the runway enviroment. Look for them when next you park your 742 on flightsim on a sector thru Japan.
Can you also, being 10 times more experienced than any of us, please explain "non standard conditions"? And what the hell is meant by your statement " the 742 hard to touch and hold level in non standard conditions. Can often depend on the gyration swing and all else"..........
Methinks you have overstepped your very limited aviation knowledge, so time to back off, people died because of an extremely poor decision on the part of ATC and you, obviously not a pilot, are trying to defend them with experience(?) gained on flightsim and by standing in the carpark at Manchester trying to guess the separation between arriving/departing flights, probably all done in a pilots uniform to boot. 
Nosey
wit. I have been reading your ignorant tripe here and had to reply. Any sane (real) pilot would know not to line up in front of an inbound OEI emergency, especially one at 2 miles and 600 feet. The subsequent asymetric go around no doubt contributed heavily, if not completely, to the accident. The aircraft holding short posed no obstacle whatsoever to the Lear, thats why they paint those yellow lines, they're called Holdpoints, to keep holding aircraft safely clear of the runway enviroment. Look for them when next you park your 742 on flightsim on a sector thru Japan.
Can you also, being 10 times more experienced than any of us, please explain "non standard conditions"? And what the hell is meant by your statement " the 742 hard to touch and hold level in non standard conditions. Can often depend on the gyration swing and all else"..........
Methinks you have overstepped your very limited aviation knowledge, so time to back off, people died because of an extremely poor decision on the part of ATC and you, obviously not a pilot, are trying to defend them with experience(?) gained on flightsim and by standing in the carpark at Manchester trying to guess the separation between arriving/departing flights, probably all done in a pilots uniform to boot.
Nosey
Last edited by NoseGear; 17th Dec 2003 at 03:19.
B747 crash at Lagos
From todays LLoyds List...
A Hydro Air B747 freighter was cleared for a night time landing at Lagos, on a runway that had been closed for resurfacing work.
At aircraft touchdown, the landing gear was ripped off after lodging in construction holes. The jet then collided with heavy equipment and machinery, only for one wing to torn off.
All the crew escaped unhurt but the plane, Hydro’s only B747, was a write-off.
A Hydro Air B747 freighter was cleared for a night time landing at Lagos, on a runway that had been closed for resurfacing work.
At aircraft touchdown, the landing gear was ripped off after lodging in construction holes. The jet then collided with heavy equipment and machinery, only for one wing to torn off.
All the crew escaped unhurt but the plane, Hydro’s only B747, was a write-off.
