A bleak future for Aviation?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Limbo
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A bleak future for Aviation?
Danny, in case you think this thread is inappropriate for a Rumours and News forum, I agree it doesn’t constitute a ‘rumour’, but for so-called professional aviators, the subject it refers to should be in bright red banner sized headlines, and if that isn’t ‘news’, I don’t know what is.
After reading the ‘Joining Qatar Airways as an FO’ thread (see here) on the Middle East forum regarding pilots offering to pay for their endorsements to get a job, I’m really disturbed at the lack of response to this thought-provoking post from Wiley on the Aircrew Notices forum. Compare it with the response to the same post here on the D & G forum.
Could it be that not very many people read the Aircrew Notices forum, or do most people not really care? If you haven’t seen Wiley’s post, do yourself a favour and take a look at it and make your thoughts known, whichever side of the argument you’re on.
IMHO, if you’re one of the ‘pragmatists’ God help this industry… and I’m off to buy shares in a blue singlet factory.
After reading the ‘Joining Qatar Airways as an FO’ thread (see here) on the Middle East forum regarding pilots offering to pay for their endorsements to get a job, I’m really disturbed at the lack of response to this thought-provoking post from Wiley on the Aircrew Notices forum. Compare it with the response to the same post here on the D & G forum.
Could it be that not very many people read the Aircrew Notices forum, or do most people not really care? If you haven’t seen Wiley’s post, do yourself a favour and take a look at it and make your thoughts known, whichever side of the argument you’re on.
IMHO, if you’re one of the ‘pragmatists’ God help this industry… and I’m off to buy shares in a blue singlet factory.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No one owes you status, respect or a copy of an ancient mariners uniform. Professional standing, remuneration etc cannot be demanded but will inevitably be dependant upon the rarity and value of your skills. They are not restricted to the western world! The skills of engineers and tradesmen of the past are now performed by Chinese girls with computer-controlled machinery. You cannot stop progress, you cannot demand that your trade is preserved in a time warp and to suggest that the events of 89 in Aus are in any way to blame for the apparent decline in status and standing are absurd. History is littered with attempts to stop the clock from the Luddites to Scargill et al.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think Carruthers makes some very good points, but I will disagree with him on one point <<“to suggest that the events of 89 in Aus are in any way to blame for the apparent decline in status and standing are absurd”.>>
By 1989, maybe things had already reached the stage within the aviation industry in Europe where an event like the Australian dispute would not be seen as a sea change, but in Australia, it was a ginormous ‘own goal’ against pilots for what little the status they still enjoyed. Judging by the number of pilots from the UK charter airlines who eagerly flocked to Australia to participate in converting that ‘own goal’ for the profession, it would seem Carruthers was right.)
While agreeing with most of the other points Carruthers made in his post, I think he’s missing the most important point from the original post, (see link), and that is, if we allow the skills of this profession to be lost by automation, it will be irredeemable and we’ll have allowed the ‘clever’ managers (now with a very few exceptions, there’s an oxymoron if ever I saw one) to make the very same mistake the shipping companies made thirty years before – with the same dire results.
Croozin, I think you should re-title the thread to “A self-inflicted bleak future for Aviation”.
In closing, anyone who hasn’t read the original post, highly recommend you do so.
By 1989, maybe things had already reached the stage within the aviation industry in Europe where an event like the Australian dispute would not be seen as a sea change, but in Australia, it was a ginormous ‘own goal’ against pilots for what little the status they still enjoyed. Judging by the number of pilots from the UK charter airlines who eagerly flocked to Australia to participate in converting that ‘own goal’ for the profession, it would seem Carruthers was right.)
While agreeing with most of the other points Carruthers made in his post, I think he’s missing the most important point from the original post, (see link), and that is, if we allow the skills of this profession to be lost by automation, it will be irredeemable and we’ll have allowed the ‘clever’ managers (now with a very few exceptions, there’s an oxymoron if ever I saw one) to make the very same mistake the shipping companies made thirty years before – with the same dire results.
Croozin, I think you should re-title the thread to “A self-inflicted bleak future for Aviation”.
In closing, anyone who hasn’t read the original post, highly recommend you do so.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are right, Carruthers, you can't stop "progress". But you can do something about it. I have read this entire thread as suggested, including the D&G section, and offer the following thoughts as someone with over 15 years in the business with a "flag carrier".
"Progress" means locating your airline in a weaker regulatory environment, just like the Merchant Navy. Our main lo cost rival "enjoys" an FTL advantage thereby. No-one's been killed by it.........yet, so Flight Ops Director says we should be pushing to adopt their rules. Conversion courses are cut to the bone, and I know from personal experience that the safeguards our airline builds into the system, from flight data monitoring of every sector to our world-leading computer database and analysis system of safety material, are not used by our competitors. Nor are Training Standardisation Captains to check the conformity of trained output to training syllabus, manuals that accurately reflect every type variant operated, generic Flight Crew Orders that cross refer where appropriate to the aircraft type manuals etc etc etc. They all add cost, and cost kills the business in the new "regulation lite" environment, where a Company's safety processes are largely left to itself as long as a semblance of a safety audit per JAR-OPS is evident. (And I do mean a semblance....what constitutes "audit" has some amazing interpretations).
I am NOT knocking in ANY WAY AT ALL the pilots who fly for those airlines. Fact is, they are winning: just look at that Irish airline's financials and its as clear as day.
As to the financial side: I fully realise that we are well paid by industry standards in my airline. I also know after my years in it that without BALPA that would UTTERLY NOT be the case. But it is relative; relative to my uni peer group I have been on the lowest wage for the longest time of that group, Doctors and Solicitors in the main. I enjoy flying, but they enjoy their work too. In the long term their prospects expand as the years go by, whilst mine darken. Our firm will have to cut and go on cutting in a cycle of decline to stay in business, and the cuts in our pride, self-esteem and conditions that have been sought have only been held in some abeyance by the union. The threat to the pension is accute throughout.
To those who say "tough luck" and launch into the stale debate about the independants versus the state carrier I would offer the following:
The United States lead where we follow. Valuejet and the Florida Everglades crash was the nadir of the low-cost phenomenon and I fear the way standards are being eroded here in Europe may lead us down that path, thats ALL of us in professional aviation. We need a common, objective, clear-cut set of minimum standards enforced by rigerous inspection with no opportunity for evasion or "corporate interpretation". Until that is brought about I fear for the industry here very much
As to rewards versus lifestyle versus personal satisfaction, I would argue that the way things are going, it just isn't worth it. I've had a very lucky run at it, but I wouldnt want my son to give it a go.
You can't eat enthusiasm, nor house yourself with it.
I am well aware that the world does not owe you a living.
If you are motivated and driven enough to climb the enourmous hill that is getting into the professional airline industry at all you can do a million other things and do them well enough to lead a very good financial life. It's not all gloom out there. Take a look at the wealth around you. Last time I went to Sydney, for example, it was there in abundance, and it's certainly here in London.
I think the thing is, Carruthers, for those of us in the profession, to accept that, in the current airline market, true value just can not be paid for. It's only when we leave that it might be. And leave we will. My mates at our leading independant competitor at LHR are doing just that: disheartened and demoralised. I am not crowing at all - it is a damning indictment of the industry as it stands when a jet base training captain gives up the job and joins us a junior FO to get away, and his colleagues who paid to get into the industry through being IT professionals are going back to it, as they see no future in aviation apart from cuts and denigration of working conditions and the belittlement of their job. That's progress though.
Two final thoughts. The Merchant Marine:
A friend is a River Thames Pilot guiding large vessels in to the Port of London. The standards he sees beggar belief. Some ships have crossed the ocean using little more than an Atlas and the autopilot. He, a highly skilled practitioner, left the sea as the Foreign Flag phenomenon took hold: BP were amongst the first to do it.
He would never go back.
Like many of his colleagues he also has a "portfolio" income from business ventures he's set up since, and he has a good life.
The "modern aircraft are so easy to fly that the crews aren't true professionals any more so dont deserve the pay" argument:
I can honestly say, having operated very old design technology to the latest fly by wire products from both manufacturers in my career, that this argument can only be espoused by those who don't know what they are talking about.
Modern aircraft operating in the RVSM environment with contemporary traffic levels and the usual european winter are ferociously complex pieces of equipment. A failure to fully comprehend the aircraft's complex interactions and modes in such a dynamic environment can be catastrophic within a blisteringly short period of time. There has never been a greater need for total professionalism on all flight decks.
I think most Flight Ops Directors are accutely aware of this and yet are caught in the downward cost/price spiral afflicting aviation wordwide.
Where will it all end? I dont know, but I've only got my one little life to lead, and seeing what I do ahead I am planning accordingly and I suspect the more far-sighted amongst us are doing like-wise.
"Progress" means locating your airline in a weaker regulatory environment, just like the Merchant Navy. Our main lo cost rival "enjoys" an FTL advantage thereby. No-one's been killed by it.........yet, so Flight Ops Director says we should be pushing to adopt their rules. Conversion courses are cut to the bone, and I know from personal experience that the safeguards our airline builds into the system, from flight data monitoring of every sector to our world-leading computer database and analysis system of safety material, are not used by our competitors. Nor are Training Standardisation Captains to check the conformity of trained output to training syllabus, manuals that accurately reflect every type variant operated, generic Flight Crew Orders that cross refer where appropriate to the aircraft type manuals etc etc etc. They all add cost, and cost kills the business in the new "regulation lite" environment, where a Company's safety processes are largely left to itself as long as a semblance of a safety audit per JAR-OPS is evident. (And I do mean a semblance....what constitutes "audit" has some amazing interpretations).
I am NOT knocking in ANY WAY AT ALL the pilots who fly for those airlines. Fact is, they are winning: just look at that Irish airline's financials and its as clear as day.
As to the financial side: I fully realise that we are well paid by industry standards in my airline. I also know after my years in it that without BALPA that would UTTERLY NOT be the case. But it is relative; relative to my uni peer group I have been on the lowest wage for the longest time of that group, Doctors and Solicitors in the main. I enjoy flying, but they enjoy their work too. In the long term their prospects expand as the years go by, whilst mine darken. Our firm will have to cut and go on cutting in a cycle of decline to stay in business, and the cuts in our pride, self-esteem and conditions that have been sought have only been held in some abeyance by the union. The threat to the pension is accute throughout.
To those who say "tough luck" and launch into the stale debate about the independants versus the state carrier I would offer the following:
The United States lead where we follow. Valuejet and the Florida Everglades crash was the nadir of the low-cost phenomenon and I fear the way standards are being eroded here in Europe may lead us down that path, thats ALL of us in professional aviation. We need a common, objective, clear-cut set of minimum standards enforced by rigerous inspection with no opportunity for evasion or "corporate interpretation". Until that is brought about I fear for the industry here very much
As to rewards versus lifestyle versus personal satisfaction, I would argue that the way things are going, it just isn't worth it. I've had a very lucky run at it, but I wouldnt want my son to give it a go.
You can't eat enthusiasm, nor house yourself with it.
I am well aware that the world does not owe you a living.
If you are motivated and driven enough to climb the enourmous hill that is getting into the professional airline industry at all you can do a million other things and do them well enough to lead a very good financial life. It's not all gloom out there. Take a look at the wealth around you. Last time I went to Sydney, for example, it was there in abundance, and it's certainly here in London.
I think the thing is, Carruthers, for those of us in the profession, to accept that, in the current airline market, true value just can not be paid for. It's only when we leave that it might be. And leave we will. My mates at our leading independant competitor at LHR are doing just that: disheartened and demoralised. I am not crowing at all - it is a damning indictment of the industry as it stands when a jet base training captain gives up the job and joins us a junior FO to get away, and his colleagues who paid to get into the industry through being IT professionals are going back to it, as they see no future in aviation apart from cuts and denigration of working conditions and the belittlement of their job. That's progress though.
Two final thoughts. The Merchant Marine:
A friend is a River Thames Pilot guiding large vessels in to the Port of London. The standards he sees beggar belief. Some ships have crossed the ocean using little more than an Atlas and the autopilot. He, a highly skilled practitioner, left the sea as the Foreign Flag phenomenon took hold: BP were amongst the first to do it.
He would never go back.
Like many of his colleagues he also has a "portfolio" income from business ventures he's set up since, and he has a good life.
The "modern aircraft are so easy to fly that the crews aren't true professionals any more so dont deserve the pay" argument:
I can honestly say, having operated very old design technology to the latest fly by wire products from both manufacturers in my career, that this argument can only be espoused by those who don't know what they are talking about.
Modern aircraft operating in the RVSM environment with contemporary traffic levels and the usual european winter are ferociously complex pieces of equipment. A failure to fully comprehend the aircraft's complex interactions and modes in such a dynamic environment can be catastrophic within a blisteringly short period of time. There has never been a greater need for total professionalism on all flight decks.
I think most Flight Ops Directors are accutely aware of this and yet are caught in the downward cost/price spiral afflicting aviation wordwide.
Where will it all end? I dont know, but I've only got my one little life to lead, and seeing what I do ahead I am planning accordingly and I suspect the more far-sighted amongst us are doing like-wise.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seconded, Airbrake.
Aviation has always been a tough place to make any money for companies. The advice that the best way to make amillion in aviation is to start off with 2 million is still true, though inflation has changed the numbers.
So why do people get into the business? Because they think they can beat the odds? I know why pilots generally get into the business and it is because they love to fly. The way the industry has gone in deregulation is to put a lot of pressure on the financials but by the same token opened air travel to very much larger numbers of people (whether that is a benefit or not is a value judgement, but what would life, for example, in the UK be like with no package holidays to someplace warm and sunny all year)
As loaded1 observes nothing ever stays the same.
Aviation has always been a tough place to make any money for companies. The advice that the best way to make amillion in aviation is to start off with 2 million is still true, though inflation has changed the numbers.
So why do people get into the business? Because they think they can beat the odds? I know why pilots generally get into the business and it is because they love to fly. The way the industry has gone in deregulation is to put a lot of pressure on the financials but by the same token opened air travel to very much larger numbers of people (whether that is a benefit or not is a value judgement, but what would life, for example, in the UK be like with no package holidays to someplace warm and sunny all year)
As loaded1 observes nothing ever stays the same.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 59
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Loaded, excellent post.
I agree with you 100%. I love flying, and enjoy what i do, but I see no reason to do it for less when I can do it for more. I do not see the argument rich-or happy, how about both. What is wrong with enjoying your job and getting well paid for it. The problem is that people tend to compare pilot jobs with office suport jobs. How about comparing it with stock brokers, or consultants, or even doctors or lawyers. If you look at the high achievers in each industry one realizes a common theme. They love what they do, but they get paid a hell of alot of money, more than they diserve maybe. It is very easy to go down the road in any industry and say that they should not be charging the amount of money they are. Why should we pay doctors, its their responsibility and duty to look after us and make their services available to everyone. How about football players, why should they get paid so much money.
I think it is wrong to look at the industry and say I am making more than so and so in such a company. I say look at them, the get more us and fly less. I do not want them to loose their status, I would rather be on par with them on an upward movement rather than a down movement.
Looking at medium term goals is not the answer, we all need to look at the big picture, because the future is just around the corner, and when the new EU pilots start coming in to our jobs with less money and we end up on the street it will not be management's fault, but rather our own apathy. It is not far away when you will see Polish, and Check pilots working in the UK. I have nothing against that as long as it is done on par with the same terms and conditions and not because they are cheap.
JP
I agree with you 100%. I love flying, and enjoy what i do, but I see no reason to do it for less when I can do it for more. I do not see the argument rich-or happy, how about both. What is wrong with enjoying your job and getting well paid for it. The problem is that people tend to compare pilot jobs with office suport jobs. How about comparing it with stock brokers, or consultants, or even doctors or lawyers. If you look at the high achievers in each industry one realizes a common theme. They love what they do, but they get paid a hell of alot of money, more than they diserve maybe. It is very easy to go down the road in any industry and say that they should not be charging the amount of money they are. Why should we pay doctors, its their responsibility and duty to look after us and make their services available to everyone. How about football players, why should they get paid so much money.
I think it is wrong to look at the industry and say I am making more than so and so in such a company. I say look at them, the get more us and fly less. I do not want them to loose their status, I would rather be on par with them on an upward movement rather than a down movement.
Looking at medium term goals is not the answer, we all need to look at the big picture, because the future is just around the corner, and when the new EU pilots start coming in to our jobs with less money and we end up on the street it will not be management's fault, but rather our own apathy. It is not far away when you will see Polish, and Check pilots working in the UK. I have nothing against that as long as it is done on par with the same terms and conditions and not because they are cheap.
JP
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 38N
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Johnpilot - your concept that pilots should be paid much the same as: stock brokers, or consultants, or even doctors or lawyers. really hits the nail on the side.
The ones among those professionals who most significantly prosper are the ones who operate proactively to find and develop business. After they have done this for some while, they become highly employable - - on premium terms - as "rainmakers" who bring in much more gross revenue than they take out in pay and perks.
If you look at brokers, consultants, doctors, and lawyers who are mere employees, with all the requisite production skills but situated so they are making an indistinct contribution or benefit to revenues. you will often find they are generally underpaid, under-loved, and terribly insecure, if not completely miserable.
So the correlation here is that job prestige, security, and high pay typically come from the stakeholder and executive perception that the individual strongly affects the future of the enterprise in a positive manner.
Merely grousing about 'the way things should be' will not have this effect.
So what's to be done? The classic medieval system of limiting entry through 'guild' techniques works somewhat for lawyers and doctors, but probably isn't suited to the inherently cyclical airline industry, which prospers when good times produce marginal resources for consumption in the business and consumer economies, and sucks when economic constriction takes that away.
Pilots need airlines and v.v. Seems to me the only two real options are a) figure out how to help sell more tix for your current or prospective employer, or b) hunker down and wait it out.
The ones among those professionals who most significantly prosper are the ones who operate proactively to find and develop business. After they have done this for some while, they become highly employable - - on premium terms - as "rainmakers" who bring in much more gross revenue than they take out in pay and perks.
If you look at brokers, consultants, doctors, and lawyers who are mere employees, with all the requisite production skills but situated so they are making an indistinct contribution or benefit to revenues. you will often find they are generally underpaid, under-loved, and terribly insecure, if not completely miserable.
So the correlation here is that job prestige, security, and high pay typically come from the stakeholder and executive perception that the individual strongly affects the future of the enterprise in a positive manner.
Merely grousing about 'the way things should be' will not have this effect.
So what's to be done? The classic medieval system of limiting entry through 'guild' techniques works somewhat for lawyers and doctors, but probably isn't suited to the inherently cyclical airline industry, which prospers when good times produce marginal resources for consumption in the business and consumer economies, and sucks when economic constriction takes that away.
Pilots need airlines and v.v. Seems to me the only two real options are a) figure out how to help sell more tix for your current or prospective employer, or b) hunker down and wait it out.
Last edited by arcniz; 5th Sep 2003 at 05:06.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
7X7, how do you propose stopping the relentless march of automation from eroding your skills? Already fly by wire aircraft are much simpler to operate and ‘fly’ and are getting more so. We can look forward to three-dimensional systems that will be safer more efficient and fully automated. The majority of accidents are crew induced, very often because they decide to ‘fly’ the aircraft. You cannot stop the world and that applies to the 89ers.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: ...second left, past the lights.
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Didn't the ValuJet crash happen because an outside vendor loaded mis-labeled (and illegal) Oxygen canisters aboard in the cargo hold?
Quite right, 46Driver.
The drop-down mask, oxygen generators were incorrectly tagged and packed and not recognised as a dangerous good.
This all happened with the ground crew and loadmasters etc... the flight crew were the last "hole in the swiss cheese" (Professor Reasons model)
Quite right, 46Driver.
The drop-down mask, oxygen generators were incorrectly tagged and packed and not recognised as a dangerous good.
This all happened with the ground crew and loadmasters etc... the flight crew were the last "hole in the swiss cheese" (Professor Reasons model)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All started a lot longer ago than many realise.
Recall a long time ago was choosen to fly a Lockheed Electra (a very nice aeroplane by the way) and several of the other applicants suggested that they would 'fly nearly for free' in order to gain advancement.
They weren't hired because the operator recognised that this was a very bad idea.
Still is.
Oh, forgot the date....1971.
Recall a long time ago was choosen to fly a Lockheed Electra (a very nice aeroplane by the way) and several of the other applicants suggested that they would 'fly nearly for free' in order to gain advancement.
They weren't hired because the operator recognised that this was a very bad idea.
Still is.
Oh, forgot the date....1971.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 38N
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carruthers - With respect, as one who flies less and less but actively drives certain aspects of aircraft automation, I feel a need to take some issue with the philosophy behind your rhetorical question: how do you propose stopping the relentless march of automation from eroding your skills?
The skill of cajoling a particular revenue aircraft aloft and back to terra firma is partly intellectual, partly mechanical. It is true that 21st century automation is likely to take over increasing amounts of the mechanical aspect as technology and supporting investment advance. At some point in aircraft systems evolution, the controls will become so squoggy that you can no longer find those sweet spots where everything works just right in a certain case. Sad, but probably inevitable. After the techies realize that controls skill still plays a useful part, they may start putting real manual discretion back in.. about anno 2250, methinks.
The bright side, from p.o.v. of aviation employment, is that the need for competent aircrew will be stable or increase in regard to the intellectual skills of putting all the pieces of flight operations together, making sense of them, and still having some reserve capacity to handle all the possible contingencies that can arise along the way. The smarter the machine, the more valuable the person who makes it work. It will continue for a long while to be a formidable challenge. with ongoing changes in the necessary skill set. From a technological viewpoint, it seems unlikely this will lead to an overall decline in Pilot compensation or openings as much as the trend to ever larger aircraft is doing. Smarter aircraft wll require greater intelligence, better systems knowledge, and more extensive skills from the crew. Not exactly the march to obsolescence.
The skill of cajoling a particular revenue aircraft aloft and back to terra firma is partly intellectual, partly mechanical. It is true that 21st century automation is likely to take over increasing amounts of the mechanical aspect as technology and supporting investment advance. At some point in aircraft systems evolution, the controls will become so squoggy that you can no longer find those sweet spots where everything works just right in a certain case. Sad, but probably inevitable. After the techies realize that controls skill still plays a useful part, they may start putting real manual discretion back in.. about anno 2250, methinks.
The bright side, from p.o.v. of aviation employment, is that the need for competent aircrew will be stable or increase in regard to the intellectual skills of putting all the pieces of flight operations together, making sense of them, and still having some reserve capacity to handle all the possible contingencies that can arise along the way. The smarter the machine, the more valuable the person who makes it work. It will continue for a long while to be a formidable challenge. with ongoing changes in the necessary skill set. From a technological viewpoint, it seems unlikely this will lead to an overall decline in Pilot compensation or openings as much as the trend to ever larger aircraft is doing. Smarter aircraft wll require greater intelligence, better systems knowledge, and more extensive skills from the crew. Not exactly the march to obsolescence.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How useful are your control skills when flying CAT3B, deploying the flaps? We are on the verge of total automation, of on board precision approaches everywhere, terrain avoidance, sequencing, separation etc etc. demands for greater intellectual and intelligent operators, dream on. As has been pointed out already, at one time train drivers were at the fore front of technology, we now have driverless trains.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
arcniz, judging by your optimistic final paragraph, I’m assuming you haven’t taken the time to read Wiley’s original post (the one in the linked thread that lead to Croozin opening this thread).
I’m afraid I have to agree with Wiley – the skills, or at least enough people with the required skills, simply won’t be available by the time ‘the experts’ realise they’ve thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
I have to agree that loaded1’s post was excellent. David Learmont, I’m told you troll the pages of PPrUNe. loaded1’s letter along with Wiley’s, would form the basis of a very interesting article in FI.
I’m afraid I have to agree with Wiley – the skills, or at least enough people with the required skills, simply won’t be available by the time ‘the experts’ realise they’ve thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
I have to agree that loaded1’s post was excellent. David Learmont, I’m told you troll the pages of PPrUNe. loaded1’s letter along with Wiley’s, would form the basis of a very interesting article in FI.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Carruthers -
Still digging those huge holes for yourself?
How useful are my skills when "flying cat3b, deploying the flaps?" Very useful. Besides, how often do we fly to Cat3B limits? Most of us find ourselves flying to airfields which simply do not have that facility, and many airfields have far from ideal facilities. Then our skills are essential.
We are having to consider more and more factors whilst flying - security for example has taken on a much higher profile - so our skills are more necessary than ever. Now they may be less pure stcik'n'rudder skills and more flight and operations management skills, but they are still essential.
Besides, how is the world's first automated airliner going to cope with angry passengers facing a 12 hour delay? What decision will it take if the catering is 12 meals short?
Most uf us enjoy flying and enjoy the challenges that come with it. We enjoy exercising our skills to ensure that our operations proceed punctually and reliably. It is perhaps a measure of our success that management and passengers alike have become utterly complacent about it, and now fail to appreciate the service they receive.
Still digging those huge holes for yourself?
How useful are my skills when "flying cat3b, deploying the flaps?" Very useful. Besides, how often do we fly to Cat3B limits? Most of us find ourselves flying to airfields which simply do not have that facility, and many airfields have far from ideal facilities. Then our skills are essential.
We are having to consider more and more factors whilst flying - security for example has taken on a much higher profile - so our skills are more necessary than ever. Now they may be less pure stcik'n'rudder skills and more flight and operations management skills, but they are still essential.
Besides, how is the world's first automated airliner going to cope with angry passengers facing a 12 hour delay? What decision will it take if the catering is 12 meals short?
Most uf us enjoy flying and enjoy the challenges that come with it. We enjoy exercising our skills to ensure that our operations proceed punctually and reliably. It is perhaps a measure of our success that management and passengers alike have become utterly complacent about it, and now fail to appreciate the service they receive.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: MAN
Posts: 804
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carruthers,
Strikes me that the depth off your knowledge on the subject of automation and flight safety is about as deep as Australia's history is long.
I do not fly an aircraft with the level of automation you allude to but I know that being a good operator of an A330 for example requires an immense amount of dedication and professionalism.
In my short career, my actions have directly contributed in successfully salvaging five or six major failures of aircraft systems and engines and countless other "unforeseen" conflicts and problems. Net result: over a thousand pax were delivered safe and well to their loved ones.
Pilots are here to stay, it is a great way to make a good living!
P.S A European survey recently discovered that pilots are regarded as the most respected group of professionals, above Doctors, judges, etc. Long may it last!
Strikes me that the depth off your knowledge on the subject of automation and flight safety is about as deep as Australia's history is long.
I do not fly an aircraft with the level of automation you allude to but I know that being a good operator of an A330 for example requires an immense amount of dedication and professionalism.
In my short career, my actions have directly contributed in successfully salvaging five or six major failures of aircraft systems and engines and countless other "unforeseen" conflicts and problems. Net result: over a thousand pax were delivered safe and well to their loved ones.
Pilots are here to stay, it is a great way to make a good living!
P.S A European survey recently discovered that pilots are regarded as the most respected group of professionals, above Doctors, judges, etc. Long may it last!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE Automation.
Yes aircraft are continually getting more automated but this has resulted in 2 pilots taking over the roles of navigator, engineer and radio operator. So nowadays pilots must be able to monitor all the systems and make decisions with the aid of the plethora of systems. However when the sh1t hits the fan and systems fail I believe that we have to be better pilots since we need a breadth and depth of knowledge to deal with the non-normals.
RE CAT3B.
Can't say I do many of these, just about the legal minimum once or twice every 6 months. But AWOPs itself is a huge can of worms, have a look at the Penta hotel incident. AWOPs is another string to our bow over yesteryear pilots who just diverted to CAT 1 conditions.
RE Professional Pay
With Doctors, solicitors, stockbrokers etc. These professions have strict centralised qualifying exams which are set by prfoessional institutes (law society, ACCA etc) which look after the interests of their professional membership. They set tough exams and entry requirements and make it very difficult for half wits to get in.
Imagine an incompetent heart surgeon who got into the position by paying his way through, getting his qualifications in some third world country and performing on your loved one? Would you say, "That's the way of the world, there's a demand for cheaper heart surgeons and this guy has always wanted to be one, as long as there are no complications he'll be alright lets pass him the scalpel!"
In the UK we have the JAA/CAA taking control of standards, setting standards whose enforcement cannot be pragmatically policed. For example a low cost airline who hires someone from Tim-buck-two because he's willing to work for peanuts; now he's not the best flyer (having failed plenty of aptitiude tests he's effectively paid a company to take him on) and is performing at minimum standards. Will the company training capt fail him?
So you see that although we have a free market system wrt Labour in our industry, it is skewed. This is because people who are below par are allowed a licence and there are many companies out there who are willing to drop standards in order to get someone in the seat, this enables more "supply" and thus the free market price of the good (our labour/labor" falls.
The only way IMHO to address this is to have centralised standards. The CAA must be able to chose which pilots within a company are checked by CAA inspectors, take their sim detail and pass or fail them. If a particular company is found to be hiring below the grade pilots then more CAA sims will be conducted on their workforce. This of course would never happen since the CAA will answer to the £££'s of the company rather than protect the standards (hence Ts and Cs) of the pilot community.
Yes aircraft are continually getting more automated but this has resulted in 2 pilots taking over the roles of navigator, engineer and radio operator. So nowadays pilots must be able to monitor all the systems and make decisions with the aid of the plethora of systems. However when the sh1t hits the fan and systems fail I believe that we have to be better pilots since we need a breadth and depth of knowledge to deal with the non-normals.
RE CAT3B.
Can't say I do many of these, just about the legal minimum once or twice every 6 months. But AWOPs itself is a huge can of worms, have a look at the Penta hotel incident. AWOPs is another string to our bow over yesteryear pilots who just diverted to CAT 1 conditions.
RE Professional Pay
With Doctors, solicitors, stockbrokers etc. These professions have strict centralised qualifying exams which are set by prfoessional institutes (law society, ACCA etc) which look after the interests of their professional membership. They set tough exams and entry requirements and make it very difficult for half wits to get in.
Imagine an incompetent heart surgeon who got into the position by paying his way through, getting his qualifications in some third world country and performing on your loved one? Would you say, "That's the way of the world, there's a demand for cheaper heart surgeons and this guy has always wanted to be one, as long as there are no complications he'll be alright lets pass him the scalpel!"
In the UK we have the JAA/CAA taking control of standards, setting standards whose enforcement cannot be pragmatically policed. For example a low cost airline who hires someone from Tim-buck-two because he's willing to work for peanuts; now he's not the best flyer (having failed plenty of aptitiude tests he's effectively paid a company to take him on) and is performing at minimum standards. Will the company training capt fail him?
So you see that although we have a free market system wrt Labour in our industry, it is skewed. This is because people who are below par are allowed a licence and there are many companies out there who are willing to drop standards in order to get someone in the seat, this enables more "supply" and thus the free market price of the good (our labour/labor" falls.
The only way IMHO to address this is to have centralised standards. The CAA must be able to chose which pilots within a company are checked by CAA inspectors, take their sim detail and pass or fail them. If a particular company is found to be hiring below the grade pilots then more CAA sims will be conducted on their workforce. This of course would never happen since the CAA will answer to the £££'s of the company rather than protect the standards (hence Ts and Cs) of the pilot community.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey all - I'd just like to quickly say that not every newbie's attitude to an aviation career is what has been mentioned in the linked thread - working for nothing and trained to 'minimal' standards. There are a number of people like myself who go through a very reputable university where we are pretty much taught to be well-rounders - For example, Human Factors, engineering, risk management, economics, marketing, etc...
Some of our lecturers have a great breath of experience in the aviation industry spanning decades, some of them pilots and some from the management side of things.
While Automation has surely taken a toll on the opinions of people, industry included, I think that the amount of work / experience / expertise required is the same, if not greater.. It's really just part of the "changing nature of work".
As a newbie aspiring to *hopefully* get to the airlines one day, I certainly hope that there will be a job out there for me that i will love, with the respect that people give you as an acknowledgement of your hard work and certainly enough money to live on (because like it or not, the needs of our modern society cannot be met without it).
As mentioned on the now closed thread, there is a broad cross-section of the aviation community on this site, perhaps one of them would be kind enough to set up a thread where they may feel like sharing some of that knowledge ..
Anyway - just my 2c ... if anyone disagrees - try to be civil about the reply ... just not liking the way most of the posts on PPRuNe tend to disintegrate into mud-slinging matches
Some of our lecturers have a great breath of experience in the aviation industry spanning decades, some of them pilots and some from the management side of things.
While Automation has surely taken a toll on the opinions of people, industry included, I think that the amount of work / experience / expertise required is the same, if not greater.. It's really just part of the "changing nature of work".
As a newbie aspiring to *hopefully* get to the airlines one day, I certainly hope that there will be a job out there for me that i will love, with the respect that people give you as an acknowledgement of your hard work and certainly enough money to live on (because like it or not, the needs of our modern society cannot be met without it).
As mentioned on the now closed thread, there is a broad cross-section of the aviation community on this site, perhaps one of them would be kind enough to set up a thread where they may feel like sharing some of that knowledge ..
Anyway - just my 2c ... if anyone disagrees - try to be civil about the reply ... just not liking the way most of the posts on PPRuNe tend to disintegrate into mud-slinging matches
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: NZ
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bucking Bronco
There are several gaping holes in your argument- for example-
Not really. We all have to meet the standard, which involves manipulating the aircraft controls to acceptable standards of accuracy, assessing weather, etc. As all initial issue tests are performed by the regulatory authority, the implication of your statement is that these authorities deliberately lower the bar- no evidence exists for this.
No, because the training captains job is to ensure that he meets the minimum standard. Anything above that is icing on the cake.
Leaving aside for a minute the illogic of your last statement, The CAA takes a keen interest in the overall skill and experience levels within a company- ask anyone who has been through a routine CAA audit.
Back to the main topic.
My take on all this is that the job has fundamentally changed in the 20 years I have been doing it. It is no longer nearly as much fun, and the drive towards low-cost is widening the gap between short-haul and long-haul T&C's.
I no longer need the same skills I needed twenty years ago, and the CAA/JAA has recognised this by changing the content of the skills test- no longer requiring NDB approaches and allowing the use of autopilots etc. I am extremely glad that I fly a smallish, but very interesting and capable aircraft (146), which still has many quaint systems and rewards accurate hand flying. I am also glad that I get to fly into interesting and challenging places such as Innsbruck, Chambery, etc. To me, flying an automated aircraft between large, unobstructed runways would be like dying a thousand deaths- particularly if my every control input was monitored and recorded at Head Office, and every manouevre was required to be completely standard and inch-perfect.
Pilots no longer command the respect they once did, and automation is partly to blame for this as it allows the perception that anyone can do the job. We thus find ourselves regarded as an inconvenient commodity by the more cynical operators- who tend to be, as others have said, more interested in the bottom line that the nature of the business.
Pilots have historically made enormous sacrifices to get a start in their careers. This makes them very reluctant to ever consider leaving the industry, so many become bitter and disillusioned whilst feeling compelled to continue. It is perhaps time for many to "think outside the box" and assess the job for what it now is.
Whilst I don't believe that the airlines will go the way of the Merchant Marine (for many reasons, from insurance requirements to public perception), it remains clear that the job is changing. It is no wonder that many non-western airlines have trouble recruiting staff- the golden days of aviation are long gone now. Neither the rewards or recognition are there for highly skilled and motivated entrants to the work force, and the the pilot community will continue to be populated by those who, in the main, simply love to fly. This is simultaneously their greatest strength- and their greatest weakness. A weakness that some airlines exploit ruthlessly.
Enjoy you flying for as long as you can.
There are several gaping holes in your argument- for example-
This is because people who are below par are allowed a licence
...is performing at minimum standards. Will the company training capt fail him?
If a particular company is found to be hiring below the grade pilots then more CAA sims will be conducted on their workforce. This of course would never happen since the CAA will answer to the £££'s of the company rather than protect the standards (hence Ts and Cs) of the pilot community.
Back to the main topic.
My take on all this is that the job has fundamentally changed in the 20 years I have been doing it. It is no longer nearly as much fun, and the drive towards low-cost is widening the gap between short-haul and long-haul T&C's.
I no longer need the same skills I needed twenty years ago, and the CAA/JAA has recognised this by changing the content of the skills test- no longer requiring NDB approaches and allowing the use of autopilots etc. I am extremely glad that I fly a smallish, but very interesting and capable aircraft (146), which still has many quaint systems and rewards accurate hand flying. I am also glad that I get to fly into interesting and challenging places such as Innsbruck, Chambery, etc. To me, flying an automated aircraft between large, unobstructed runways would be like dying a thousand deaths- particularly if my every control input was monitored and recorded at Head Office, and every manouevre was required to be completely standard and inch-perfect.
Pilots no longer command the respect they once did, and automation is partly to blame for this as it allows the perception that anyone can do the job. We thus find ourselves regarded as an inconvenient commodity by the more cynical operators- who tend to be, as others have said, more interested in the bottom line that the nature of the business.
Pilots have historically made enormous sacrifices to get a start in their careers. This makes them very reluctant to ever consider leaving the industry, so many become bitter and disillusioned whilst feeling compelled to continue. It is perhaps time for many to "think outside the box" and assess the job for what it now is.
Whilst I don't believe that the airlines will go the way of the Merchant Marine (for many reasons, from insurance requirements to public perception), it remains clear that the job is changing. It is no wonder that many non-western airlines have trouble recruiting staff- the golden days of aviation are long gone now. Neither the rewards or recognition are there for highly skilled and motivated entrants to the work force, and the the pilot community will continue to be populated by those who, in the main, simply love to fly. This is simultaneously their greatest strength- and their greatest weakness. A weakness that some airlines exploit ruthlessly.
Enjoy you flying for as long as you can.