Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

English! Crab Beefer - not - crab beefer!!

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

MaroonMan4,
You don't have to visit this thread if you find it so dull! or is it that actually because you don't fly AH you are compelled to visit this thread in the hope that one day you may read something that offers you the slightest glimmer of hope at potentially having a go in the beast.

Try Bob or No if your looking for hope......else keep away!

Oh and by the way this thread is about AH pilots resigning and under that title the underlying reason's why surely is befitting.

PP:}

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Someone with this Profile:
Occupation:
Apache Aircrew wanabe"

Says this:
..or is it that actually because you don't fly AH you are compelled to visit this thread in the hope that one day you may read something that offers you the slightest glimmer of hope at potentially having a go in the beast."

Hello Po(e)t, Kettle calling!

Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

I was interested to see two Apaches cruising around the Spey valley in Scotland this morning while I was at a shoot, but slightly disconcerted to see one start to circle overhead when eight shotguns started firing at the same time. Obviously they were just training but is it possible that such small arms fire would light up something on the panel prompting them to come and have a look, or was it just coincidence? In any event, never having seen one before they were an impressive sight and probably had a good day out in the highlands.

Re: Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

Do they have some based at Lossiemouth or Leuchars?

TiP

Re: Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

I doubt it

Re: Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

PIC,

HIDAS (Helicotper Integrated Defensive Aids Suite) is the only system that could theoretically react to such events, in particular the Missile Warning System (MWS). However the system is programmed to recognise specific UV emissions and as such should not be triggered by shotgun blasts. If they were I think that the MOD would have serious questions to ask about the false alarm rate of the system. However I am certain that this is not the case.

Needless to say if the Apaches had caught wind of the shots and were trying to ascertain the source, I imagine the guys would have got a bit of a shock!!
However, even in peace time I doubt the aircrew would put themselves or the airframe at risk where gunfire is concerned. Most probably just sit in a suitably high hover and use the powerful Targeting systems in the nose of the aircraft to have a look!

Regards,
Sioux4D

P.S The operational Apache squadron is at Dishforth North Yorkshire

Re: Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

Sioux4D

Thanks. We suspected as much, but did amuse ourselves by discussing what might be the best course of action if it did return fire. It was generally agreed that scarpering towards the trees all in different directions probably wouldn't be sufficient evasive action.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Shy TQ/PP,

Edited and deleted - because I got involved in an unecessary slagging match with Shy TQ, without reading his thread.

Apologies Shy TQ

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Maroon, I was actually defending you. If you had done some research yourself, you would have realised that I am also a civvie tax payer.

P.S. military personnel are also tax payers.

Tsk! :rolleyes:

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Maroon Man 4 I agree, they are not lost.The first 2 going to ATIL are excellent QHIs (who I enjoyed flying with) with loads to offer and we will continue benefit as a Corps.I am sorry that there are so many others thinking of going who will be lost to the system.I know I will not stay the whole time, unless we get allowed to train properly rather than dwindle this great capability.Perhaps ATIL should civilianise the regiments?

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

See here in today's Scotsman......
Click for link

Uncle G :ok:

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Interesting reading, at least someone is aware of the potential disaster that may occur if the AH remains poorly funded and badly resourced.

I get the feeling that whilst money may well be something that could be offered to tempt pilots to stay for a while longer I doubt that it will keep the majority in unless of course the financial figure is significant; already people are leaving when they could get FRI2 thats 50K for 5 years service..........Mmmmm.......not working is it.......... but why?

Well one reason may be quality of life, the chaps I see on a daily basis that are in their 20's look like they are in their 40's they are knackered, worn out and fatigued.

Don't visit an AH pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.

Great aircraft but what an existence....AttackKKKKKKKKK... What..

PP.
its good to talk, start listening!:}

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

God help the poor lambs if they actually have to deploy anywhere. Give me strength. :hmm:

Apache pilots required
 

this maybe of some interest to some out there
found on google
Sat 14 Jan 2006 The Scotsman
Army being scalped of Apache pilots
JAMES KIRKUP
WESTMINSTER EDITOR
THE British Army's £2 billion fleet of Apache attack helicopters could
go short of pilots after a string of resignations. Military insiders
say that many of the small number of army pilots qualified
to fly the aircraft have either quit or plan to leave in coming months.
Some have been lured to the private sector where their skills command
much higher wages than those paid by the army. Others say they are
frustrated by rigid military career structures that force them out of
the cockpit and into an office. Even frontline pilots complain that
they spend too little time actually flying. After a lengthy and complex
procurement process, 67 Apaches were declared
"ready for operations" last year. The Apache is arguably the most
sophisticated combat aircraft in the world, packed with weapons systems
and advanced sensor packages that provide pilots
with a deluge of information about their surroundings. In all, training
an Apache pilot to combat readiness takes six months and costs the MoD
more than £1 million. At least four Apache pilots are believed to have
resigned in recent weeks. Army rumours suggest that several more could
shortly join them, possibly as many as 11 in all. If true, several of
the Apaches, which cost about £30 million each, could effectively be
grounded for lack of a qualified pilot. The Apache fleet already has
suffered teething troubles in the form of mechanical and technical
failures. Such is the complexity of its systems, anything between a
fifth and a half of the helicopters are grounded for maintenance at any
one time. Military insiders say a shortage of qualified engineers
exacerbates the situation. While pilots are hugely enthusiastic about
actually flying the Apache, the mechanical difficulty of getting the
aircraft into the air and the inflexibility of the army career
structure are said to have left many pilots frustrated. One reason the
Apache-qualified pilots are leaving is money. Several private companies
pay generously for army-trained pilots who are then effectively hired
back to the military through Private Finance Initiative training
contracts. "Now why would some of the highest calibre pilots be leaving
the army? The sum of £60,000 a year springs to mind," said one
military insider. The fresh fears for the Apache are being discussed
widely by Army Air Corps members on unofficial service internet forums.
"A lot of these [qualified pilots] have a great deal of experience that
we should not be losing before we have even finished fielding Apache,"
said one poster. Other insiders blame the Army Air Corps' career
profile that obliges pilots to move on from operational flying after a
three-year posting. "As long as the men who fly Apache have to adhere
to the career profile there will be waste," said one pilot. But the
Ministry of Defence said there could be flexibility. "Apache crews may
serve for longer than three years if their careers allow, and may of
course return to flying after experiencing other roles," said a
spokeswoman.

Re: apache pilots required
 

You spend a million pounds training someone, then just when they are starting to get some experience on type, you take them off flying dutys? Dosn't sound real cost effective.

Re: apache pilots required
 

That's always been the way, especially in the RAF. My moles tell me it is almost completely due to the "man management" coming from AG14, if that's what it's still called (they're the guys that do the postings). There have been a couple of juicy sessions where the Apache guys have just got up and walked out of the meetings, due to the patronising attitude. They then proceeded to do their licences and PVR.

Phil

Re: apache pilots required
 

Senior Mil types do seem to have some sort of problem with Proper management of assets and manpower,
Small example, friend of mine is a Col in the Maroon berry brigade, we were having a pint one day talking about the business I was in(transport) I explained that we could accept a load for delivery from the North West of the UK to any part of the EU continent and have it delivered within 24 hours,

Very seriously he told me that would take weeks to achieve, and that would be just the planning, if it was to move any of his regiments assets.

Well if that is the case, these boys at the top of the Mil tree need a swift dose of business in Civvie street!!;)

Vfr

Re: apache pilots required
 

Interesting reading. Looks like a lot of info lifted directly from a thread on the Mil Forum.
A lot of Apache pilots are well into their mil careers and some of these may have been close to retirement age anyway. (Remember that standard retirement age for Non-Commisioned Officers is 40!)
Others have been tempted by the lure of filthy lucre by recycling their skills as civilian instructors on the Apache system, thus their skills may not be lost.
Besides the Apache is a young mans sport, not flying it of course, but fighting it. :)
BTW Paco, AG14 became PB14 that became MCM. Same sh1t different name!

Re: apache pilots required
 

I thought that only one squadron (8 aircraft) had been declared as fully operational, with 9 reg AAC based at Dishforth.

Alot of the problems stem from the huge learning curve that is required to learn the raft of complex Avionics (both aircraft and mission systems) on the platform. As faced with conversion from the intuitive analogue systems of the likes of a gazelle or the single squirrel to a fuly integrated glass cockpit and mission suite, can be some what daunting.

The ground school training that is required to learn the capabilities and operation of the systes on board is extensive. This coupled with the fact that the systems and the aircraft's system processors (the heart of the aircraft) are being constantly updated and developed, makes the job that much harder. Finally add the fact that actual time in aircraft is like gold-dust, you can see that a new Apache pilot's task is enormous.

Don't get me wrong the AAC training is superb, and the Apache pilots (in my humble experience) are constantly proving to be extremely capable and intelligent. The simple fact is that the UK MOD just doesn't have enough money to fulfill the old adage that "Practise makes perfect".

Finally I think that the Army's philosophy that you are an Officer first and a Pilot second (unlike in the RAF and RN were pilots fly for the majority of their career) is proving to be detrimental in the case of the Apache. Seeing as experienced AH pilots are few and far between you would have thought it advisable to keep any fully trained assets current.

Apologies if any of my opinions prove controversial.

Sioux4D