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-   -   US tornado damage (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/666093-us-tornado-damage.html)

havoc 17th May 2025 16:18

US tornado damage
 
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....62301eb95.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7dba690dfa.png
Kentucky

Sir Korsky 17th May 2025 18:30

AEL not having a lot of luck with their 135s. Tornado write off in the hangar ? Now that's the definition of unlucky in Kentucky.

comingup 17th May 2025 21:39


Originally Posted by Sir Korsky (Post 11885708)
AEL not having a lot of luck with their 135s. Tornado write off in the hangar ? Now that's the definition of unlucky in Kentucky.

If a tornado hits, a hangar only delays the destruction by a few seconds.

havoc 18th May 2025 01:51

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ad0d584d9.jpeg

admikar 18th May 2025 07:06

Why didn't they relocate in the first place?
A lot cheaper to spring up for some flight hours than to replace whole damn helicopter!

OvertHawk 18th May 2025 07:34


Originally Posted by admikar (Post 11885833)
Why didn't they relocate in the first place?
A lot cheaper to spring up for some flight hours than to replace whole damn helicopter!

This was a Tornado not a Hurricane.

Tornados are not predictable in the same way hurricanes are.

[email protected] 18th May 2025 09:37


Originally Posted by OvertHawk (Post 11885854)
This was a Tornado not a Hurricane.

Tornados are not predictable in the same way hurricanes are.

The exact location, especially of touchdown, isn't accurately predictable but the weather conditions that produce them certainly are.

How much would it have cost to build a tornado proof hangar? less than a new helicopter? Insulated Concrete Forms seem to survive.

Bell_ringer 18th May 2025 09:44

Was there insufficient warning to allow them to reposition the aircraft?

wrench1 18th May 2025 12:40


Originally Posted by Bell_ringer (Post 11885932)
Was there insufficient warning to allow them to reposition the aircraft?

While there is usually a tornado watch area issued for severe weather outbreaks, tornado warnings are only issued if there is radar indicated rotation or visual sightings of a funnel on the ground. So once a warning is issued you basically have a window of 0-15 minutes to seek cover, etc. vs have time to fly an aircraft out. And even with a warning issued theres no guarantee a tornado will even touchdown. For example, on one side you can spend your entire life going through tornado watches and warnings and never see or hear an actual tornado, then on the other side you could find yourself in the middle of a super outbreak which could generate 100+ of tornados in one day over several states like in 1974 and 2011. Its this unpredictability that makes it so hard to plan ahead.



Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11885930)
How much would it have cost to build a tornado proof hangar? less than a new helicopter? Insulated Concrete Forms seem to survive.

Short of an underground bunker hangar, tough to build a tornado proof structure that large. While the intensity of the tornado (F1-F5) plays into what gets damaged and at what level, the unique dynamics of how a tornado moves, etc. also determines what gets hit. Have seen all the houses on one side of the street leveled to the foundation, and all the houses on the other side of the street with no damage. But the strangest I've seen was back when I bid on/bought weather damaged airplanes to repair or part out. A tornado had swept most of the aircraft on a small airport flightline into a pile at the corner of a larger hangar and the perimeter security fence. However, the aircraft tied down along the edge of the ramp area, the tornado cherry-picked several aircraft out of that line while leaving the others intact include a Piper Super Cub that wasn't even moved within its tie-downs. Regardless, give me a hurricane over a tornado or earthquake any day to plan for.




havoc 18th May 2025 13:07

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....dbd883a04.jpeg
Tornado path near London KY

wrench1 18th May 2025 14:30

PHI EMS also had a EC135 damaged as well.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c6eeac01e3.jpg

albatross 18th May 2025 15:00

From Ian Hunter moderator of the FB Group “Air Crash Investigations / Mayday”
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....76b6fef72.jpeg
Photo from Ian Hunter’s post at FB Air Crash Investigations /Mayday
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a86722452.jpeg
Google Earth

Comprehensive list of aircraft destroyed or damaged at London-Corbin Airport, Kentucky, USA on the evening of Friday 16/MAY after it was hit by a passing tornado which caused widespread damage to the area.
************Destroyed/Written off************
Eurocopter EC135 P2. R/n. N307PH
Beechcraft T-34A Mentor. R/n. N326M
Cessna 206H Stationair. R/n. N230DE
Piper PA-32 Cherokee 6. R/n. N3486W
Beechcraft T-34B Mentor. R/n. N534BR
Beechcraft T-34B Mentor. R/n. N400LL
Beechcraft A-45 Mentor. R/n. N256GR
Beechcraft T-34B Mentor. R/n. N134RD
************ Substantial Damage************
Beechcraft 58 Baron. R/n. N221CH
Cessna 182E Skylane. R/n. N2836Y
Cirrus SF50 Vision. R/n. N184AS
Cessna 182S Skylane. R/n. N418WR
**************Minimal Damage**************
Beechcraft D45 Mentor. R/n. N2VYo

Bell_ringer 18th May 2025 15:56

That’s awful.

havoc 18th May 2025 18:35

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ef81fa8d5.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....aaac54abc.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....406f5eeb6.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....bd075aa54.jpeg

Chock Puller 18th May 2025 20:25

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....03a755c1f2.jpg
Even strong steel girders are not immune from damage by a Tornado of F4/F5 strength.

[email protected] 19th May 2025 09:18

Whilst even concrete (ICF) structures can be trashed by a F5 tornado, the US averages only one of those per year.

The same structure is much more likely to survive F4 and below (average 1200 per year) so given the cost involved in all those damaged aircraft in one location it must be cost effective to build them.

It is like failing to protect the Baltimore bridge from ship strikes which would have cost in the low $millions but now they face a nearly $2Bn bill just to replace the bridge, let alone the loss of revenue for the intervening period. At least they can sue the ship's owners but unless your lawyer is very good, getting recompense out of Mother Nature for tornado damage will be tricky.

Some big insurance claims coming in Kentucky.....

Pilot DAR 19th May 2025 13:26


How much would it have cost to build a tornado proof hangar?
Letting alone the forces of the winds very local to the passing tornado, and the probable debris damage, the tornado passing directly over has such low atmospheric pressure that a "sealed" building tries to explode outward, to equalize the pressure, as counter intuitive as it would seem, leaving doors and windows open may be a better idea. From tornadoes we have had in our area, which were not F5), I have formed the opinion that no above ground building could survive, and an underground one would have to be well underground. For aircraft to survive a tornado, they simply must not be in it.

Chock Puller 19th May 2025 13:38

This might be of interest to those considering Tornadoes and aircraft on the ground during those and other hazardous weather events.


https://www.global-aero.com/weather-...tion-insurers/

wrench1 19th May 2025 14:53


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11886330)
The same structure is much more likely to survive F4 and below (average 1200 per year) so given the cost involved in all those damaged aircraft in one location it must be cost effective to build them.

Except its usually not the wind load that destroys building but the debris field in that wind. Plenty of reports out there of solid concrete structures extensively damaged by wind driven debris and not just tornados or hurricanes. For example, for a structure to receive any type of weather rating it must pass an impact test which is usually a 2x4 shot at the structure at X mph depending on the rating and at the right speed that 2x4 can even penetrate concrete. Regardless, in my experience, if these events were an issue the insurance underwriters would be the first to drive such mitigative requirements like they do for structures in hurricane or flooding prone areas.

havoc 19th May 2025 16:26

Video: Drone video shows tornados’ damage in Kentucky morning after deadly storms | CNN

Been focused on the airport but the town of London took a hit, I flew out of London with PHI in 04/06-time frame (workover). Sorry if an ad pop up, not sure how to edit that out.

[email protected] 20th May 2025 06:55


Regardless, in my experience, if these events were an issue the insurance underwriters would be the first to drive such mitigative requirements like they do for structures in hurricane or flooding prone areas.
See Chock Pullers link above - tornadoes clearly are a bigger issue than many realise.


Performance Against Debris and Wind Loads

To simulate the wind speeds up to 250 MPH present in tornadoes, the Wind Engineering Research Center at Texas Tech University was the first to design an air cannon that could shoot 2x4s and other objects to duplicate flying debris conditions during high winds and tornadoes. Debris flying at over 100 MPH passed right through a standard wood framed wall leaving inhabitants at risk, while an ICF wall with 2 1/2” of Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) foam on each side of the concrete, was not damaged2.
The strength of a tornado in the United States is estimated using the Enhanced Fujita Scale (EF Scale). The scale has six categories from zero (EF-0) to five (EF-5) representing increasing degrees of damage.
An ICF wall can offer a wind resistance of 250 MPH which is equal to an EF-5 tornado. The strength is based on the wall’s composition of steel reinforcement and concrete. In addition, ICF walls are resistant to the water-damage often associated with tornadoes, hurricanes and other storms.
​​​​​​​
https://alleguard.com/insights/torna...ncrete%20core.

wrench1 20th May 2025 15:16


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11886850)
See Chock Pullers link above - tornadoes clearly are a bigger issue than many realise.

How so? Ask anybody who lives in a tornado or hurricane prone region and they fully know the risks and protentional results with some having a more intimate knowledge than others. I think the question is, given ICF construction methods have been around for 60+ years, and since you imply it is the panacea for this type of damage and cost, why do you suppose ICF methods are not mandated in these areas by public building codes, but more importantly, by insurance underwriters?

[email protected] 22nd May 2025 05:52

It's like safety - you get as much safety as you are prepared to pay for (Baltimore bridge again) - if you aren't prepared to wear the cost of protecting your assets then don't be surprised when something bad happens which, with hindsight, you realise you could have prevented.

Building codes are there to protect people but they are easily watered down by pressure from builders who want volume not quality. Why else do you still have so many wood frame houses in high fire risk or high tornado risk areas?

As for the underwriters, they know the probabilities and make more money out of charging people for unlikely outcomes - if you had a super safe building that would provide ultimate protection, how would they be able to justify hiking your premiums every year?

wrench1 22nd May 2025 13:04


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11888107)
As for the underwriters, they know the probabilities and make more money out of charging people for unlikely outcomes - if you had a super safe building that would provide ultimate protection, how would they be able to justify hiking your premiums every year?

Easy because they do that now. You could build the safest, most storm proof structure and the insurance is under no obligation to reduce your rate. So why spend extra money on a super structure that you'll never recoup and still pay the same insurance premiums to cover that structure? Matter of fact they would probably up your rate since the cost to repair or replace that super structure cost a lot more. But thats provided the insurance would even write you a policy. If everyone started to built brick-sheet houses they would assume there was a known reason and probably leave the area like they've done in a number of hurricane prone states.

[email protected] 22nd May 2025 13:57

Obviously you know best

MechEngr 22nd May 2025 14:16

I expect that insurance underwriters dislike uncertainty the most. If they don't have sufficient statistical data about something they are likely to charge more. For a large enough structure and large enough policy I expect they would hire structural and environmental engineers to reduce that uncertainty, but for a residential home? They will charge more because it cost more.

On the converse, in a place where they have seen certain structures do well they may change their minds when the accommodation is obvious. For example, the use of roof-ties in hurricane prone areas have been known for decades; also reinforced garage doors. They may drop insurance entirely if those are not in place.

The key is the amount of certainty based on experience.

[email protected] 22nd May 2025 15:27


Originally Posted by wrench1 (Post 11888387)
Easy because they do that now. You could build the safest, most storm proof structure and the insurance is under no obligation to reduce your rate. So why spend extra money on a super structure that you'll never recoup and still pay the same insurance premiums to cover that structure? Matter of fact they would probably up your rate since the cost to repair or replace that super structure cost a lot more. But thats provided the insurance would even write you a policy. If everyone started to built brick-sheet houses they would assume there was a known reason and probably leave the area like they've done in a number of hurricane prone states.

Easy - if you are unfortunate enough to get hit by whatever tornado/hurricane etc and your property survives intact when all around is debris - yours still being intact and surviving is something of a win and you don't have to jump through the insurers hoops when making a claim as they try to find any possible loophole to avoid paying out. Witness the brick built houses still standing after the LA fires when everyone else lost everything.

wrench1 22nd May 2025 18:04


Originally Posted by MechEngr (Post 11888435)
I expect that insurance underwriters dislike uncertainty the most. If they don't have sufficient statistical data about something they are likely to charge more.

I don't know. Even when they have the data it appears they still use some sort of voodoo calculation to determine cost or even coverage. For example, when I built my current house which is located 20 miles from the central Gulf coast, I had plans drawn that followed the requirements of the Dade County, FL Hurricane codes, which are considered the premier hurricane building codes in the industry, simply because my state didn't require any special codes. I took those plans to three of the A-rated insurance companies in my area for review and quotes. Two of those companies stated they could not write a policy since I was below a line on the map regardless of what additional codes I followed.

The third gave me a quote but offered no discount for the additional preventative measures I was taking in its construction. So since I was going to pay the same cost for replacement insurance, I had my builder cull out the overkill building items since I wasn't in a high velocity wind zone and kept the common sense items like you mentioned. Its been 17 years and I'm still money ahead than if I had built 100% Dade County compliant and thats even after a 300%+ increase in my premiums. I think if insurers were more proactive with preventing damage than just making a buck, more people like myself would take the initiative to invest in better mitigative options to reduce damages.


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