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-   -   Gyroscopic precession engineering question (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/658249-gyroscopic-precession-engineering-question.html)

Robbiee 26th March 2024 02:27


Originally Posted by Wide Mouth Frog (Post 11623541)
I thought very carefully about whether to add to this post, but on balance I think there's an important point to be made.

What I think good teachers are trying to do is to give you enough information to do the job, and although it may not be the whole truth, they make sure that nothing they offer is wrong. That way anyone coming in later isn't trying to correct mistakes, they're trying to extend and enrich what you know already. If you teach that rotors are 'like' gyros, you're picking on a single common feature that can't support any extension, and is easily proved to be wrong from the example of the helicopter on the ship.

Robbiee, you've already said that your interest is purely flying, and that these aerodynamic curiosities are just hurdles you have to cross to get to do that. I'd say that's completely fine and I wish you luck and success in your flying career. If you ever have to teach though, I think there's a responsibility to dig a little deeper, and acknowledge the simplifications you might choose to make, and to make those simplifications act as foundations not detours.

So, are you saying that just because a spinning rotor doesn't act like a gyro on a pitching ship, that the pitch horns aren't offset because (like a gyro) input is experienced later in the direction of rotation?

Like it or not, its an apt simile that does absolutely nothing (just like whatever the "real" reason is) for a pilot than to help him pass a few tests.

If I were a teacher, I'd teach my students what they need to know to pass the tests. Flight training is unbelievably expensive, and there's no need to make it more expensive by wasting the students time (money) on "Cliff Clavinesque" information!

If pilots want to know more than what the FAA wants them to know, well,...that's what the library (Google) is for,...plus its free!

megan 26th March 2024 03:08


My rotor stayed locked in its plane parallel to the deck
It won't though if SAS is still engaged, all because of a gyro elsewhere in the system. ;)

Ascend Charlie 26th March 2024 05:49

A helicopter is LIKE a hummingbird, it can hover
A helicopter is LIKE an aeroplane, it can fly forwards
A helicopter is LIKE a person on rollerskates on an ice rink, it is somewhat unstable
A helicopter is LIKE an egg with a straw stuck up its fundamental orifice
A helicopter is LIKE a lot of things, but it ain't a gyroscope. Some aspects are LIKE a gyro.

It gives the lowest common denominator (a student) a concept to work with. In the same manner, "Ground Effect is LIKE a cushion of air". The increase of RRPM as the blades cone upward is LIKE a skater spinning round and pulling their arms in. Teaching some students is LIKE practising bleeding.

[email protected] 26th March 2024 13:04


Originally Posted by megan (Post 11623566)
It won't though if SAS is still engaged, all because of a gyro elsewhere in the system. ;)

That's why you don't sit on the deck with the ASE/SAS engaged until you are ready to lift.:ok:

[email protected] 26th March 2024 13:06


If I were a teacher, I'd teach my students what they need to know to pass the tests. Flight training is unbelievably expensive, and there's no need to make it more expensive by wasting the students time (money) on "Cliff Clavinesque" information!
depends where you set your personal standards - knowing the wrong thing is worse than knowing nothing at all.

Robbiee 26th March 2024 14:57


Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie (Post 11623603)
A helicopter is LIKE a hummingbird, it can hover
A helicopter is LIKE an aeroplane, it can fly forwards
A helicopter is LIKE a person on rollerskates on an ice rink, it is somewhat unstable
A helicopter is LIKE an egg with a straw stuck up its fundamental orifice
A helicopter is LIKE a lot of things, but it ain't a gyroscope. Some aspects are LIKE a gyro.

It gives the lowest common denominator (a student) a concept to work with. In the same manner, "Ground Effect is LIKE a cushion of air". The increase of RRPM as the blades cone upward is LIKE a skater spinning round and pulling their arms in. Teaching some students is LIKE practising bleeding.

Arguing on Pprune is like trying to put a square peg into a round hole while jumper cables are attached to your plumbs. :ugh: :eek:


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11623904)
depends where you set your personal standards - knowing the wrong thing is worse than knowing nothing at all.

Well, a lot of people on the internet wrongly believe that "Settling with Power" is when you're coming in hot and just wait too long to put on the brakes, or that its "overpitching", so,...

Whatta ya gonna do? :cool:

RVDT 26th March 2024 19:29

Is The Rotor A Gyro? - Ray W. Prouty 1926 - 2014


You might remember your first experience with a toy gyroscope and the amazing things it did in apparent disregard for the obvious laws of nature.

It displayed remarkable stability. If it was set spinning horizontally, it wanted to stay horizontal no matter how you moved the support, but if you were determined to move the axis by brute force, the gyro moved in a strange way—at right angles to the applied moment. Even if you were later exposed to the gyroscopic equations and acquired a confidence in your ability to manipulate them, you were probably still vaguely disturbed by this device's strange behavior (I know I was).

A rotor in a vacuum.

The disc of a spinning helicopter rotor certainly looks much like a toy gyroscope. So does it act like one? Yes and no. The reason for the "no" is the existence of very large aerodynamic forces on the rotor blades. As a matter of fact, if you remove the aerodynamics by running a rotor in a vacuum, it will demonstrate gyroscopic stability.

A rotor with blades hinged at the center of rotation (such as a teetering rotor) for example, in a vacuum, there are no aerodynamic forces, only centrifugal forces acting in the plane of rotation, and these can produce no moments about the flapping hinges. If the shaft is tilted, no changes in moments will be produced and the rotor disc will remain in its original position as if it were a gyroscope. (Of course, if the rotor had had offset flapping hinges, the centrifugal forces would have produced moments that would have aligned the blades perpendicular to the shaft.

A rotor in air.

In air, the aerodynamic forces will cause any rotor to align itself perpendicular to the shaft.

First, there is the tilt of the shaft alone as the rotor disc acts as a gyroscope and remains in its original plane. However, since the blade feathering is referenced to the shaft, the angle of attack of the right-hand blade is increased and that of the left-hand blade decreased by the same amount.

This causes the rotor to flap until it is perpendicular to the shaft, where it will again be in equilibrium with a constant angle of attack around the azimuth and the moments will be balanced. This alignment is very rapid, usually taking less than one revolution following a sudden tilt. Because of this, the flapping motion in hover has practically no effect on the stability of the helicopter in terms of holding a given attitude.

This was not recognized by many people in the early days of helicopters.

A rotor as a gyro.

So, if a rotor does not act like a gyro trying to retain its position in space, when does it act like a gyro? This answer has to do with how the rotor moves if you put an unbalanced aerodynamic lift on the disc. It will respond by moving at right angles to the unbalance just as the toy gyro does, and it does so in exact compliance with the gyroscopic laws that say the angular rate of motion-the "precession rate" —will be proportional to the applied moment.

This is in apparent contrast to Newton's Law that states that an angular acceleration should be the result of an applied moment. (The rotor/gyro is actually obeying Newton's Law but its high rate of rotation is producing this overwhelming side effect.)

The unbalanced lift distribution can come either from external sources such as a gust or from control inputs using cyclic pitch. For example, right stick will lower the angle of attack of the blade over the tail and raise it on the blade over the nose. This noseup unbalance on the disc will cause it to precess down to the right and the rest of the helicopter will soon follow. For a given helicopter, the resulting right roll rate will be directly proportional to the change of cyclic pitch from trim. Not all helicopters, however, will roll at the same rate for the same cyclic pitch. In response to the gyroscopic laws, the rate will be higher for those helicopters whose rotors are lighter or turning faster.

Thus, it may be seen that the rotor is like the mysterious toy gyro as it responds to applied moments but it has practically none of the toy's inherent stability. If required, this last drawback can be compensated. Early Bell helicopters used a stabilizer bar that acted like a gyro and controlled cyclic pitch in a way that transferred some of the gyro stability to the rotor. The Lockheed rotor and gyro system did the same thing. Nowadays, the designer can use a hidden black box containing a small, rapidly turning gyro with appropriate connections to the control system to make the helicopter achieve as much stability as desired.

[email protected] 26th March 2024 21:49

let you continue in your little bubble of self-righteous indignation.

​​​​​​​ If you want to revel in ignorance that's your business.

Robbiee 26th March 2024 22:10


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11624221)
let you continue in your little bubble of self-righteous indignation.

If you want to revel in ignorance that's your business.

Wow! I haven't been accused of righteous indignation since my high school English class back in '88. Damn, that takes me back.

Anyway, given the above post, seems this Prouty guy shares my ignorance. So at least now I have someone to tango with. :ok:

Lala Steady 27th March 2024 06:41

Let's play 'Spot the Troll' - oh yes its robbiieee

Robbiee 27th March 2024 14:40


Originally Posted by Lala Steady (Post 11624345)
Let's play 'Spot the Troll' - oh yes its robbiieee

Hmm,...if I'm not mistaken, this is how Millennial's say, "I don't agree with you",..right?

[email protected] 27th March 2024 22:27

The British Army have a very quaint expression for those that can't or won't listen to reason - 'You can't educate pork' - somehow seems appropriate here

Robbiee 27th March 2024 23:35


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11624861)
The British Army have a very quaint expression for those that can't or won't listen to reason - 'You can't educate pork' - somehow seems appropriate here

We have an expression in The States when someone has there knickers in a twist about something. There's no emoji here for it, so I'll just go with the closest one. :rolleyes:

helispotter 28th March 2024 05:39

I have enjoyed reading the commentary (debate) on this topic, even if some of you have seen it discussed to death.

The video of the Bo105 main rotor blade filmed in slow-motion (from a camera mounted above the hub) is worth a look:


A few things to note: The tail boom comes into view each revolution. This is also when the track of the rotor disk is at about its highest point above the line of the horizon so helicopter is undoubtedly in forward flight. Note that maximum angle of blade incidence had been applied much earlier and is already being reduced again by the time the blade passes over the tail boom. There is also not much "flapping" of the blades themselves, rather the whole rotor disk (as apparent from the movement of the hub relative to the horizon) is tilted relative to the horizontal on this hingeless rotor. Shy Torque gave a nice summary in #2 outlining what is happening, also applicable in this Bo105 case.

All the same, given this is a hingeless rotor, it would certainly have some of the characteristics of a gyroscope. So give a Bo105 a solid shove on its skid while it is in a low hover and the helicopter should partly respond like a gyroscope even if rotor aerodynamics may be a more dominant effect.

megan 28th March 2024 07:18

Have a go at this statement from a US Army training manual FM 3-04.203


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d1d1e6e3f8.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....dfb54df264.png

Ascend Charlie 28th March 2024 11:14

Megan, looks like a really old manual, maybe from when Igor Sikorsky was an instructor on your course.

Note that it says "precession is not a dominant force", and adds that a rotor exhibits "some" of a gyro's characteristics.

The second section about nose up or down when rolling into a turn is something that I have never observed in 45 years and 15,000 hours of rotary flying. Either I have been totally blind to such things happening around me, or they are confused about what is happening. Rolling into a right turn means the swash plate is causing the blade pitch to be at a minimum over the tail to reach the lowest point at the right side. The whole disc tilts right, the fuselage follows. The "precession" has already happened over the tail and over the nose to make the disc tilt right, it is not a force applied at the right side to tilt the disc and having a "precession" effect 90 degrees later over the nose.

Or is my brain fried after all these years of being bounced up and down at 2:1 and 4:1?

megan 28th March 2024 17:01


looks like a really old manual, maybe from when Igor Sikorsky was an instructor on your course
Here hang on a minute, date of the publication is 7 May 2007, I graduated 56 years ago, and USN if you please, not Army. ;) I said "have a go at this" thinking it might stir things up.

The second section about nose up or down when rolling into a turn is something that I have never observed in 45 years and 15,000 hours of rotary flying
Might one take away that you could detect the change in stick position caused by the S-76 PBA, in 6,000 hours I couldn't. :p

when does it act like a gyro? This answer has to do with how the rotor moves if you put an unbalanced aerodynamic lift on the disc. It will respond by moving at right angles to the unbalance just as the toy gyro does, and it does so in exact compliance with the gyroscopic laws that say the angular rate of motion-the "precession rate" —will be proportional to the applied moment.
Is Prouty wrong?

Another discussion on the subject, and where you had the last word AC. :D Me?All this techo stuff is beyond my intellect.

https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-19678.html

RVDT 28th March 2024 19:47


Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie (Post 11625153)
Megan, looks like a really old manual, maybe from when Igor Sikorsky was an instructor on your course.

Note that it says "precession is not a dominant force", and adds that a rotor exhibits "some" of a gyro's characteristics.

The second section about nose up or down when rolling into a turn is something that I have never observed in 45 years and 15,000 hours of rotary flying. Either I have been totally blind to such things happening around me, or they are confused about what is happening. Rolling into a right turn means the swash plate is causing the blade pitch to be at a minimum over the tail to reach the lowest point at the right side. The whole disc tilts right, the fuselage follows. The "precession" has already happened over the tail and over the nose to make the disc tilt right, it is not a force applied at the right side to tilt the disc and having a "precession" effect 90 degrees later over the nose.

Or is my brain fried after all these years of being bounced up and down at 2:1 and 4:1?

Maybe -


Prouty Helicopter Aerodynamics 2 - Chapter 75 - Some Coupling Considerations

In explaining how a rotor works, we often talk about how the flapping response follows the maximum aerodynamic input a quarter of a revolution later. For our scientific-minded friends, we relate this to a system in resonance or to a gyroscope. It turns out that this is a very good rule-of-thumb that adequately covers most situations, but there are several “Yes, buts”.

Enter Hinge Offset


One of the these is that the resonance theory strictly applies only to rotors with no hinge offset. Thus, the explanation was valid up to about 1950 since all autogyro and helicopter rotors up to that time had been designed that way. The Sikorsky S-52 was the first production helicopter I know of that had hinge offset. The only motivation at the time was that the design of the hub could be made simpler than on the zero-offset S-51. When the test pilots first got in the S-52, they were astounded by the improved control power compared to what they had been used to. We now think of this as the prime motivation for using flapping hinge offset.

With zero offset, as on teetering rotors, if you are on the ground and apply minimum cyclic pitch to the blade directly over the tail boom, the resulting flapping response will be seen to be down on the right side. This also initially happens in the air when the rolling motion is first accelerating. If the helicopter has offset flapping hinges, or a hingeless rotor where flexibility takes the place of an actual flapping hinge, the response angle is not 90 gegrees but something less since the dynamic and centrifugal force effects are not quite balanced and this causes the rotor to operate somewhat off its natural frequency.

Thus, when the minimum cyclic pitch is applied over the tail boom, the rotor produces a large left rolling moment but a small nose-up moment as well (we are talking about American helicopters, of course). The response angle, however, is seldom less than 85 degrees and the resulting cross-coupling is practically unnoticeable to the pilot.

There are exceptions to this. The Eurocopter BO-105, designed in the 1960s, has a very stiff hingeless rotor that acts as if it had a flapping hinge at 13.6% of the rotor radius. Its calculated response angle is 73 degrees and since the moment of inertia in roll is much less than in pitch, the cross-coupling is such that by pulling straight back on the stick, the roll response is more than the pitch response!

As awkward as this might seem, pilots quickly adapt to this characteristic. There are, however, some other adverse effects to so much stiffness and so the next two projects in this line, the BK-117 and the EC-135, have softer hingeless rotors with effective hinge offsets of 12% and 11.8% respectively.

When a Steady Rate is Achieved

What we have been talking about so far is acceleration cross-coupling. A different physical law governs rate cross-coupling. Imagine a helicopter in which the pilot is making the helicopter roll to the right at a constant rate. For this case, there is no rolling moment and therefore no flapping with respect to the shaft; otherwise the roll motion would not be at a constant rate but would be accelerating. (We are ignoring the small aerodynamic roll damping associated with the rest of the airframe.)

To get this steady right roll state, the pilot is holding his stick to the right to obtain an airload distribution that will precess the rotor down to the right as a gyroscope. The airframe will respond by rolling to the right along with the rotor. Since there is no flapping in this steady condition, it does not matter how the blades are attached to the hub.

Where does the rate cross-coupling come from? Compare the environment of the blades on the right and left side. On the right, the blade is going down through the air and thus has a higher angle of attack than the blade on the left, which is going up. This should produce some up-flapping toward the nose, but if the maneuver is such that the helicopter has only rolling motion as we specified, the pilot must be putting in some forward stick to suppress this flapping and its resulting pitching moment.

This results in the minimum cyclic pitch being imposed, not when the blade is directly to over the tail boom, but somewhat later.

The resulting value of this cross-coupling is a function of the ratio of aerodynamic forces to dynamic forces. This ratio is known as the Lock number after a British engineer who developed equations for autogyros in the 1930s. Since the blade flapping inertia is in the denominator of the equation, heavy blades have low Lock numbers and light blades, high. For current helicopters, the range for main rotor blades is from about four to twelve. For a conventional Lock number of eight, the longitudinal cyclic pitch required to keep from pitching is just half the lateral pitch that is being used to maintain the roll rate. The lighter the blade, the more longitudinal cyclic pitch must be used.

The Other Side Of The Coin


The above discussion applies to maneuvering where the pilot is making the rotor do his bidding and the airframe goes along. There is yet another consideration. It is when the airframe is moving and dragging the rotor along with it. This happens, for instance, when the pilot neutralizes his control after a maneuver but the helicopter still has some rolling or pitching rate or when the helicopter has been upset by a gust.

In these cases, the rotor flaps with respect to the shaft to produce a damping moment. For the case of no hinge offset, the cross-coupling effect is the mirror-image of the one that applies in a steady rate case. If the aircraft is rolling to the right without a pilot command, the magnitude of lateral flapping producing a damping moment to the left is equal to the cyclic pitch that the pilot would have used to maintain that right roll rate. This is a result of the fact that flapping and cyclic pitch are related in a one-to-one ratio. For the same reason, there is a corresponding longitudinal flapping producing a noseup pitching moment which is about half the lateral flapping. In other words, there is cross-coupling even in this case.

The situation is a little different if the rotor has offset flapping hinges. Not only is the damping moment larger, but it can be shown that the cross-coupling diminishes with offset and that for conventional blades, a 15% offset would eliminate this coupling entirely so that a rolling velocity would produce no longitudinal flapping. (My thanks to Tom Hanson for pointing this out to me.)

Because all of these cross-coupling effects are different, there is no single adjustment to the control system that will simultaneously eliminate all of them. In most helicopters that I know of, moving the stick directly to the right produces minimum cyclic pitch over the tail boom and the decoupling is left to the skilled pilot. I have been told, however, of two where the designers have attempted to minimize cross-coupling by changing the geometry of the control system within the fuselage. One is Frank Robinson who has designed the control systems on his helicopters such that when the stick is pushed straight forward, the maximum pitch displacement occurs at an azimuth angle of 73 degrees instead of at 90 degrees.


BraceBrace 28th March 2024 20:21

The answer without calculations: it is an effect of highly damped vibrations. If you want to know exact numbers, you would have to apply the theory behind highly damped vibrations, and that theory scared so much the bezjeezes out of me, they were the first papers to hit the bin once I graduated +25 years ago and I decided I wanted to be a pilot.

In the world of "mainstream" pilots, gyroscopic effect is "an explanation" that avoids you have to face reality because that reality is too complex to grasp for many people. If people cannot accept that, I can assure you there are plenty of other "pilot theories" that don't survive any self-respecting bachelor/master in aerodynamics. It's fine. It's not the goal of your/my job. Just keep it simple. Simple keeps the flightdeck alive.

As a pilot you are trained to be an operator, not a designer.

paco 29th March 2024 08:24

I always understood it as simply inertia.

[email protected] 29th March 2024 08:52

Inertia vs aerodynamic damping:ok:

[email protected] 29th March 2024 08:53

So according to Ray Prouty, Lu Zuckerman was wrong - it was 73 degrees not 72 degrees on the R22 rotor head:)

[email protected] 29th March 2024 08:55

Teaching effects of controls on different helicopters with ASE/SAS/STAB off, you can see a nose pitching tendency when rolling into turns - it tends to go up one way and down the other depending on which way your rotors are turning.

helispotter 30th March 2024 12:24

I thought some of you might be interested to see how John S Fay described rotor phase lag in his 1954 book "The Helicopter and how it flies". He then goes on to indicate that "some rotors can therefore be said to behave like a gyroscope in that their phase lag is 90-degrees". So that association has been around a long time. Relevant pages as follows:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c89e48ad4a.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....23fc38c4b2.jpg

[email protected] 30th March 2024 12:28

And most people will see that he says that the 'rotor will behave in a SIMILAR way to a gyroscope', not like a gyroscope just in a similar way - he doesn't say it precesses like a gyro does - perhaps it is in English comprehension that the message is lost.

helispotter 30th March 2024 12:35

I once came across the textbook "Helicopter Flight Dynamics" by Gareth D. Padfield (1996) and bought it thinking it would be an interesting read. But it really was much too heavy for me! None the less, hope Gareth doesn't mind me sharing a pair of extracts from the book, one on "The fundamental 90 deg phase shift" (page 36) and the other on "pitch to roll and roll to pitch couplings" (page 417). Some light bed time reading:

Page 36 extract:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....759cf86dea.jpg
Page 417 extract:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ee049e6936.jpg


paco 30th March 2024 14:06

Don't let EASA see that - the silly beggars will turn it into a question :)

Bell once used blades on a Bell 206 that were double the normal weight and they ended up with a gamma of 180°! In fact, the blades had so much energy that there was also no H/V curve.


JimEli 30th March 2024 23:48


Originally Posted by helispotter (Post 11626378)
I thought some of you might be interested to see how John S Fay described rotor phase lag in his 1954 book "The Helicopter and how it flies". He then goes on to indicate that "some rotors can therefore be said to behave like a gyroscope in that their phase lag is 90-degrees". So that association has been around a long time. Relevant pages as follows:

“Some rotors can therefore be said to behave like a gyroscope in that their phase-lag is 90 degrees.”

FWIW, I believe the reference is to the Bell-Hiller rotor system, although not explicitly stated.

helispotter 31st March 2024 10:11


Originally Posted by paco (Post 11626416)
...Bell once used blades on a Bell 206 that were double the normal weight and they ended up with a gamma of 180°! In fact, the blades had so much energy that there was also no H/V curve.

paco, you motivated me to search the internet for more about these tests and the test report is publicly available at:

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA071648.pdf

The report titled "Flight Test Evaluation of the High Inertia Rotor System" was produced by Bell Helicopter Textron in June 1979. The tests used a modified prototype OH-58A and evaluated three different rotor inertias with the lowest being similar to the rotors of the standard OH-58A and the highest being more than double that inertia. Blades were not necessarily double the standard weight, rather the high inertia was achieved by adding more tip masses to the modified rotor system. Page 40 shows the H-V curve for the standard and three different inertias. No limit curve for the highest inertia as you said. Page 96 reports a case of apparent entry into VRS for one of the test points with the helicopter contacting the ground but then becoming airborne again due to the available inertia! Page 97 discusses the more sluggish response of the higher inertia rotor, but addressed by incorporating a "control quickener".

paco 31st March 2024 11:50

Thanks for that - I will add that to my information junkie's reading list!

Aluminium Mallard 31st March 2024 11:55


Originally Posted by Wide Mouth Frog (Post 11620691)
Robbiee, you'll like this one.

Sitting in my helicopter on a wild day with rotors running, my AI showed every heave and toss of the ship. My rotor stayed locked in its plane parallel to the deck. The AI is a gyro, the rotor is no!

This is a bit misleading, the AI is in a gimbal where the helicopter and rotor system is fixed to the deck.

For the record i'm in team flapping!

[email protected] 31st March 2024 12:19

But the AI accurately represents the position of the horizon demonstrating rigidity in space.

The helicopter wheels may be lashed to the deck but the disc is free to flap, only limited by the pilot's vice-like grip on the cyclic.

JohnDixson 31st March 2024 14:19

The rotor coupling response suggests behavior more like a rate gyro, at least in the machines I’ve been exposed to with reasonably broad maneuver envelopes. The S-67 was an interesting example. It did have the electronics from the CH-54B Skycrane installed, but flew so well without ( it did always have the stick force per G, Feel Augmentation System on ) that we never set up the gains and it remained N/A.

During the demo tours in the USA ( 1971 ) and UK/Germany/Iran/Greece ( 1972 ) probably 2-300 pilots got to fly it, and the standard flight included a split S and a roll: one each by the SA pilot flying with the guest pilot on the controls and one each by the guest pilot with the SA pilot helping as needed*. Roll Procedure was simple: put the nose down 10-15 degrees ( any angle ok-just hold that pitch attitude, then set collective around 70%Q ( anything around that was fine ) when you got to around 170KIAS pull the nose up to around +15 degrees-again, anything around that was OK, and when the speed dropped to around 130-140 or whatever, put the cyclic on the right stop**, and watch the world go around. No need to move anything until the world was level again. Roll took about 4 seconds plus a bit and the aircraft would, without any longitudinal correction, come out about level. So, with that 12 inch flapping offset main rotor, the coupling was absolutely there, but easily manageable.
*One of the gust pilots in Germany was former Luftwaffe Chief of Fighters Adolf Galland. He needed no help doing anything.There was one UK Spitfire WWII pilot of high rank and multiple decorations whose name escapes me now, but who walked very unsteadily with a cane up to the 67, and needed help from two people getting into the 67 front seat, but once there, like General Galland, needed no help in maneuvering the 67..
**And yes, we did rolls to the right only, but not for any aerodynamic or dynamic coupling reasons but because in left rolling maneuvers the tail rotor edgewise stresses were high enough so that we would have to cycle count the maneuvers if we went the other way ( tail rotors had a flapping hinge but did not incorporate a drag hinge ).
This post is a bit off subject but indicative that the coupling induced higher rate maneuvers are handled naturally by the pilots.

Robbiee 31st March 2024 14:34


Originally Posted by Aluminium Mallard (Post 11626881)
This is a bit misleading, the AI is in a gimbal where the helicopter and rotor system is fixed to the deck.

For the record i'm in team flapping!

Its also misleading because the comparison of a rotor to a gyro is about how a force applied to it is experienced later in the direction of rotation, not its stability characteristics.

,...but I'm team teeter. :cool:

Wide Mouth Frog 1st April 2024 03:15

So this has been a useful debate.

We seem to agree that the rotor does not demonstrate one key feature of a gyroscope, namely rigidity in space. The question I think we're now trying to answer is whether the control lag for a helicopter rotor is 'like a gyro', ie. governed by the same kinematics as a gyro, or 'like a gyro' in the sense that it has similar observable characteristics but no connection to the kinematics of a gyro.

And then when we've answered that we can debate whether the gyro simile is an appropriate teaching tool for helicopter pilots. I would say that if the former prevails, then there's a qualified case for it. If the latter, then probably not.

[email protected] 1st April 2024 06:44

I think the former is demonstrably wrong and the latter is only true of teetering rotors.

Therefore using gyroscopes as a way to teach rotor behaviour simply ignores the reality of basic aerodynamics - why would you do that?

If you want to be a pilot, learn some aerodynamics - if you want to be a physicist, learn gyroscopes.

Some of the advanced texts quoted here show that in SOME rotors, it is possible to explain cross-coupling effects using gyroscope tendencies but those aren't for PPL, CPL or even possibly ATPL study.

Dumbing down training to make it 'easier' is a great way to cause more accidents through ignorance.


paco 1st April 2024 07:49

"Dumbing down training to make it 'easier' is a great way to cause more accidents through ignorance."

If you want proof, just look at the EASA questions.

BraceBrace 1st April 2024 09:11


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11627259)
If you want to be a pilot, learn some aerodynamics - if you want to be a physicist, learn gyroscopes.

That is only valid up to a certain point, and reality has shown it has an equally dramatic downside: the overthinking pilot. He crashes quicker than anybody else.

A pilot needs skills, not theory. Theory is required to let the person understand and train a certain required skillset, but it is what it is: background foundation. Otherwise Usain Bolt would be an expert in body dynamics. Or the Euler equations would be written down on every pilot kneeboard.

You might feel "better prepared" because your "theory" is of another level. The same applies to you unfortunately. There is a limit to what you know and apply. At the end of the day what the "theoretical" pilot needs to realise is that his "aerodynamics" is nothing more than fluidodynamics with a tuned down vision on compressibility (we consider it incompressible for a lot of our thinking). Once we enter that zone things get quickly rough for many pilots, especially when discussing rotor dynamics.

Keep it simple, that keeps it safe.

[email protected] 1st April 2024 12:16


That is only valid up to a certain point, and reality has shown it has an equally dramatic downside: the overthinking pilot. He crashes quicker than anybody else.
got any evidence to back that assertion up?
It flies in the face of what I have experienced in 42 years of flying.

Underthinking pilots who underprepare because they think simply learning to control the machine in a straight line makes them good pilots.

BraceBrace 1st April 2024 13:01


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11627411)
got any evidence to back that assertion up?
It flies in the face of what I have experienced in 42 years of flying.

Underthinking pilots who underprepare because they think simply learning to control the machine in a straight line makes them good pilots.

Plenty of examples after 6 years in engineering, followed by 18 years in aviation of which 7 years in training people with different backgrounds.

The thinker is always late, he is one of the most difficult people to train as his natural problem handling process is to think about it when he's supposed to act. Understanding is not a problem solution. You still die if you understand the reason why you're dying and the acting came to late. Overemphasising technical knowledge creeps into the ego of many people, and claims an idea that "they know". They usually don't, as even the most advanced theoretical pilot training is limited and does not tell full stories.

Ask any old pilot to explain the theory behind his flying, he will not be able. It doesn't matter to know the why. It matters to know how to act appropriatly.

Keep it simple saves lifes. Complicated theory wastes time.


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