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Well, it looks like a typical CFIT......
I don't know how people fly at night but this idea to be in contact with the ground all time is....impossible. You have to stay around urban area or town to be able to do that. How would you fly EMS doing that? The fact is, the FAA and Transport Canada have regulation who make no sense, are not appropriate to any operation, and of course, refuse to change it because they perfectly know the consequences. In many places, you go for a night flight and a big part of this flight is done in complete darkness. In reality, a night flight is an instrument flight and nothing else. We go to many places where it does not matter looking outside because you won't see anything. Of course, now we have NVG"s, so we see everything. But, I flown for a very long time without them and what you do, is an instrument flight. Looking at one lonely light somewhere won't help you anyway, it is the best way to get disoriented. The FAA and TC know that perfectly well, they know what everybody is doing, but do they change anything?? |
So no AP then...
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Arcal.....the VFR minimums are determined by weather data....ceiling and visibility.....not whether you can see anything or not.
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Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10389232)
Arcal.....the VFR minimums are determined by weather data....ceiling and visibility.....not whether you can see anything or not.
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Originally Posted by tottigol
(Post 10389853)
Remember though, THEIR WX minimums are different.....they can do things when others cannot....
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So if the weather minima are fine and there is no pressure to go flying - how come we keep seeing HEMS helicopters spread all over the hillsides?
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Crab....you know as well as anyone....there are "pressures" applied that are even sub-conscious pressures.
Even at a 1000 foot ceiling and 3sm Vis....on an overcast night....there are more than a few times there is n nothing to be seen outside the aircraft in remote areas. Could it have simply been as easy as merely losing control of the aircraft due to vertigo? That can happen with zero overt pressure to fly being applied by anyone. |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10390311)
So if the weather minima are fine and there is no pressure to go flying - how come we keep seeing HEMS helicopters spread all over the hillsides?
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HELONORTH
Of course Crab has. All SAR pilots have and they have the most demanding pressure of all aviators to get airborne. Decisions never come easy. The difference being this is as a highly trained team of 4 crew. You get what you pay for, equipment, crew training and logistical support... Sadly, cheap options are going to be spread out across the ground for years to come as a result. |
Originally Posted by NRDK
(Post 10390393)
HELONORTH
Of course Crab has. All SAR pilots have and they have the most demanding pressure of all aviators to get airborne. Decisions never come easy. The difference being this is as a highly trained team of 4 crew. You get what you pay for, equipment, crew training and logistical support... Sadly, cheap options are going to be spread out across the ground for years to come as a result. |
Originally Posted by helonorth
(Post 10390336)
Have you ever taken a flight that you wish you hadn't? Ever made a dumb mistake that could have gotten yourself killed but got lucky? That's how. Helicopter flying is inherently dangerous.
There are several reasons US HEMS has 'so many accidents.' There is more of it, covering more area with minimal support and regulation built around operator's interest. Beyond being told landing was 'an acceptable option' if I could not proceed safely, nothing in the company culture or structure encouraged that decision easy. It was never trained in initial or recurrent, and seldom even mentioned in discussion. Weather minimums are secondary to decision making, forecasts are guesses, observations are history, the weather is what you see from the cockpit, you have to deal with what exists. The vis, ceilings may be officially acceptable but if you're working hard to just control and fly the aircraft safely, you are behind the aircraft and it is flying you. A competent PIC's job is to evaluate and plan to complete the leg if possible, but definitely maximize survival and perhaps, just perhaps not break the aircraft. Approaching each flight prepared to abort, divert, land somewhere uncomfortable to survive or minimize the chance that you sacrifice an aircraft to merely survive would, I think, go a long way to reducing all accidents. When I flew Gulf of Mexico, our training emphasized the fact that a power on ditching was much, much safer than an autorotative ditching. How many pilots would put a running helicopter on the water, or in the trees, merely because he wasn't certain he could extend the fuel to a safe, undamaged landing? Extending the glide kills crews regularly, avoiding the decision that you have to land now does too. I found it much more comfortable and easy to avoid the possibility at every opportunity, because I knew with certainty that better pilots than I had died pushing it. Been to a lot of funerals over the years. |
I never regretted landing when I did because of deteriorating weather....on the other hand I have rued deciding to push on.
I very much was into the "Chicken out early....mode of thinking!". If you think Taxi Fare is expensive....try adding up the cost of an accident. |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10391209)
I never regretted landing when I did because of deteriorating weather....on the other hand I have rued deciding to push on.
I very much was into the "Chicken out early....mode of thinking!". If you think Taxi Fare is expensive....try adding up the cost of an accident. |
The Temperature/Dewpoint was 6C/10C ( 42.8 DegF/50.0 DegF).
The current Temperature/Dewpoint SPREAD was 7.2 Deg in the NEGATIVE direction, well B E L O W the temperature at which the air would become saturated and fog would form! Then...if there were flat valleys or streams, HEAVY fog would have formed faster than the wind could sweep away. |
Originally Posted by bryancobb
(Post 10421485)
The Temperature/Dewpoint was 6C/10C ( 42.8 DegF/50.0 DegF).
The current Temperature/Dewpoint SPREAD was 7.2 Deg in the NEGATIVE direction, well B E L O W the temperature at which the air would become saturated and fog would form! Then...if there were flat valleys or streams, HEAVY fog would have formed faster than the wind could sweep away. |
Originally Posted by LRP
(Post 10421818)
The NTSB prelim says -6C/-10C.
frost already and the humidity would be ZERO. If the temperature dropped from 21 DegF to 14 DegF, I'm pretty sure the air would not become saturated. |
Originally Posted by bryancobb
(Post 10421872)
That wouldn't make any sense for foggy conditions. It must be a typo. If it was 21 DegF outside, all moisture would have fallen as
frost already and the humidity would be ZERO. If the temperature dropped from 21 DegF to 14 DegF, I'm pretty sure the air would not become saturated. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ed9f3b04e8.jpg No offense intended, but you might want to research that theory. |
Water can remain liquid down to -40°C. Then you can have ice fog which only forms under specific conditions; the humidity has to be near 100% as the air temperature drops to well below 0 °C (32 °F), allowing ice crystals to form in the air.
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"Water can remain liquid down to -40°C"
Really??? I guess I better go back to school, I would like to see that trick :} Megan, I'm sure you meant " water can remain VISIBLE down to -40C" as in ICE fog...... |
Originally Posted by bryancobb
(Post 10421872)
That wouldn't make any sense for foggy conditions. It must be a typo. If it was 21 DegF outside, all moisture would have fallen as
frost already and the humidity would be ZERO. If the temperature dropped from 21 DegF to 14 DegF, I'm pretty sure the air would not become saturated. |
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