Well, I've just turned up at work to find that we're grounded(along with the rest of the UK ASUs I believe) after advice from Turbomeca. As someone else said, a CYA exercise I think for low level stuff.

Thanks for that info MG:E - time to go and do the blag we've planned - hope Cameron isn't around ready to "fire up the Quattro", though most of the lads have decided to get banged up in time for the World Cup - get free SKY TV and 3 meals a day!;)

HF

Now, all sensible people wouldn't have any problems with flight-restictions when you're exposed to the smoke and volcanic ash. But what sort of consentration in the air is it in the lower part of the atmosphere a few thousand kilometers away?

Is it really sane to have EMS and SAR helicopters (all helicopters for that sake) grounded far far away from the eruption. As long as you can't see these particals in the air, I doubt that they are more harmful than the very visible SAND you normally see when landing in dry places. (damages to surfaces, not ingested)
And for engine damage, this should be avoided with the use of sand-filter?? I am not talking about partical-seperator, but proper sand-filter.

But this ash is really special, so normal means won't help.



But hey, there might be "other" reasons to keep a total ban I'm sure.

It would be interesting to see a comparison with the Harmattan in W Africa - different composition of course but often much more dense than this stuff, ISTR many hours flogging around in 1-2 mile vis

I presume pistons are less effected. Imagine that, turbines grounded and good old pistons fly normally.:)

Think of all the piston NON IR rated pilot!!! :p






(our turn now) :E

If there is absolutely, and I keep hearing it on the radio and TV, absolutely positively no threat to health in any context whatsoever...with Professor after Doctor after Health 'Expert' telling us this is so, how come engines are 'going to be' affected so much as to ground EMS etc?

Having washed the car yesterday (it really needed it), I expected a layer of this volcanic ash to be on it this morning. Quelle suprise, diddly squat, apart from those darned flying rats leaving a message. I'm sure there's a difference between flying through a volcanic ash cloud as in the 747 back in '82 and flying through dissipated ash cloud thousands of Km down range.


What next FFS?
Thunderstorm in Edingburgh, stop refuelling operations in Newcastle!
And when some other 'expert' appears on TV and mentions health risks, cancellation of the London Marathon and other events next weekend?

Hey ho, It's a lovely day out there, the birds are singing (and flying) and all is well with the world. (until an expert tells us otherwise!)

Um... lifting

The plug is of the threaded type with counter-clockwise threads and for the right amount, I will use my devilish powers to unscrew the volcano with it :}

Jokes aside.
I can tell you that the ash that falls lea side of the volcano is very thick and it is beginning to damage farmlands. But to our amazement, most of the domestic airports and airfields have not been closed and flying helicopters in the viscinity of the volcano has not been prohibited.

Air North has been busy flying with news reporters and geologists and evacuating people from the area.

Check this article on Morgunbladid newspaper, it is in Icelandic but the picture isn't :)

I suppose the VFR heli-ban hysteria is because we aren't used to this situation.
If the volcano at Iceland had been active for several years, they wouldn't quit flying in Northern Europe....
The British 747 flew through the main eruption form the volcano with extremely dense ash, no wonder the engines stopped..

It's the same in countries with blue skies 364 days a year, and the one day with poor visibility, they don't fly.
In Norway we have winter and lots of rain/snow and poor conditions, but have learned to live with it, and fly when the conditions are good enough, but it doesn't need to be perfect.

Heli-Ice:

I know you are happy that you get a lot of tourists coming to see the volcano, but you don't need to smoke out the rest of Northern Europe! Look what you have done, now we can't even fly to Iceland to see it! :}
Can you please turn down the eruption a bit, so we can get things moving here again...?

"Volcanic ash is hard to detect from an aircraft, and is not visible on the weatherradar.
The most dangerous aspect is that the particles'(ash) meltingpoint is lower than the turbines' working-temp. This leads to the ash melting to a thick, lava-like fluid, that slowly floats into the engine and causing it to shut down.
The ashparticles are very hard, with sharp edges, effectively sand-blowing leading edges.
The windshields are most vulnerable, turning matte, and the pilot's loose visibility."

I cannot wait for the next disaster movie to come out, which shall surely includes scenes like the one above.:8

Unbelievably i managed to claw my way home from London to Yorkshire , battling my way through volcanic ash . My pax were issued with scarves across their mouths and i wore WW2 goggles to protect my eyes . The engine miraculously kept turning , blades dripping molton glass ...but we made it :eek:
Now planning to be a superhero and collect some pax from the borders who have been stranded . Strangely enough , looking inside the cockpit and engine bay there doesnt seem to be a single speck of dust ...its immaculate .
Maybe its my butler being v attentive ...or maybe just maybe .....no thats such a stupid thought .......i was just going to suggest that maybe this is a load of bollocks and there is no ash floating out there at 500ft at all .....maybe our beaurocrats have their heads up their arses again and havent actually looked outside :ugh: One word ......PATHETIC . No add another one as well TYPICAL . How on earth did we win a war .

I think the disaster movie would need the pilot battling with the aircraft to stop it from hitting an orphanage / school / maternity hospital.

Orange skies
 

Is this Nick Clegg's doing?

charlieDontSurf

What we got here is a hostage situation. We found a few very rich tourists and they are held hostage by the eruption while we strip'em to the bone.

Just wait a few days and these people will be let loose and you will be tricked up here instead for a complete package :ok:


A little more about the ash vs helicopter.

Since the volcanic ash mainly composed of very rough glass type crystals, doesn't it eat up the blades on our precious helicopters? I recon that this is a lot worse than desert sand/dust of any kind?

Scoop and tottigol

Make sure that the movie will be shot in Iceland in real circumstances. We have all the resources here and if something isn't available, you don't need it.

I remember hearing that when Mt. St. Helens erupted in the early '80's, the guys that chose to fly amongst the ash got about 300 hours between overhauls on their compressors. My guess is the engines and rotor systems leading edges won't last too long. The engine probably won't quit...right now...:rolleyes:

There is no evidence of any ash at all from my flights last night or today ...i would say that means there isnt any ....some of the more enterprising operators of jets are really making hay now flying charters :D:D
Of course if and when there IS ash then things would be different ....until then carry on flying .

when did air traffic change from assiting aircraft with the safe and orderly flow of traffic to telling us when and where we can fly ?:ugh::ugh:

pretty sights....
 

ATC don't own the skies, the governments do. NATS is the largest of the UK's Air Navigation Service Provider, note the words Service Provider. They provide a service within the confines of the licence and limitations of HM Government PLC. In the current situation NATS are the governments spokesmen/talking heads. Neither NATS nor the airlines want to stop flying because they're losing money hand over fist.

What absolutely astonishes me is the arrogance and selfishness being displayed in this thread. HM Government are taking advice from volcanologists and the met office about the ash plume and are acting on that advice. In this thread I read non experts who simply want to fly wherever and whenever they like, to hell with the rest of us. Well I personally don't want the mangled wreckage of your aircraft landing on my head, or my house or my friends etc. etc. and I don't want my taxes spent in scraping you up off the ground. You remind me of the most ignorant comment on sky from some woman who said "It's a disgrace, I want to go on my holidays and they won't let me!" Does she really want a holiday which has the potential to become permanent?
The effects of volcanic ash on aircraft are very well documented and the risks are too high, stay on the ground until it's absolutely safe and you're not likely to cause harm to the rest of us.

BD

No judgement required....
 

It is understandably the correct decision for a state functionary to make.

He is only at 'wrong' if he 'allows' flght incorrectly - there is no incentive for him to make a judgement to allow flights ... even though it is probably ok.

It's a bit like y2k computer issue....

(Nutty but ......... if required corridors could be verified as suitable by flying 'survey flights' - the squirrel with barrier filter could do the job - ready to go now if required....)

After all the 100's of millions of pounds might be worth a few hours in a helicopter...
don't they have atmospheric sampling aircraft?:ugh:

Accountability?
 

Isn't the problem here about accountability anyway?

IFR Class A airspace aircraft are 'controlled' by someone who cannot verify that there is not a dense ash cloud on the route in the path of the aircraft - therefore he cannot be expected (individually or corporately) to give a clearance ...

... the pilot would be able to determine if his path were obscurred by dense volcanic ash - but he is (effectively) not allowed to look out of the window in Class A airspace. (No VFR or SVFR in Class A Areas)

Temporary permission to fly SPECIAL VFR in Class A Controlled Areas - could help.

I guess most of the UK population is looking up at the sky and not seeing a volcanic cloud at all - 8/8 blue?
Can anyone see this cloud ?
Is it just a theoretical possibility which is being avoided?
Can this possibility be verified....?

Is there an observable upper atmospheric dust cloud somewhere?

Am I missing something here?

Is there damage from invisible trace ammounts ?
Are we talking about parts per 10 billion?

............only IFR 'grounded'
 

Volcanic ash does not affect VFR aircraft....

I guess they are not telling you stay on the ground just to be awkward and spiteful, more likely they are doing it for a good reason, i.e. trying to give you a better chance of reaching pensionable age!
It is a sensible thing to follow the rules and if they say No then thats it, when its safe to play outside they will let you know:ok:

Aftenposten.no issues a forecast for ash cloud dispersal.

Article on Flightglobal about Finnish F-18's eating Icelandic ash.

Live update about airspace restrictions due to the volcanic ash on Flightglobal

Funny thing is that we have flight restrictions of only 10 NM radius from the craters at Eyjafjallajokull.

News coverage of the volcanic ash some 50km to 100km east of the eruption site. Note that the video is shot at noon :eek:

You might like to ask the Shetland Coastguard?

BBC News - Helicopter flies through volcano ash in Shetland rescue

Volcanic ash does not affect VFR aircraft....
 

In June 1991, Mount Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines. The volcanic ash drifted across to Brunei where I was flying the S61s based there. One of my colleagues experienced compressor stall as he applied power at the end of his approach at our base. On inspection, it was found that substantial build up was occuring to the compressor blades which required the implementation of 2 compressor washes per day to prevent further engine problems.
It was very rare that any of the helicopters there operated IFR, so I think the above statement isn't exactly true........

Helicopters are blind ....
 

Yes the helicopter probably doesn't know whether it is being flown VFR or IFR ...

.... I am sure the ash would have the same effect on the engines whether the pilot is flying VFR or IFR.....

The restriction is only for IFR though....

Presumably because if you are looking out of the widow and free to adapt your path there is no need to fly through the dust particles ....?

(It seems rarer for twins to have particle seperators though ... is that true?)

Absolutely Volrider ...Nanny knows best :rolleyes:

Satalite image of ash location..............
 

Volrider ?
 

Belfast-London looks ok don't you think?

Of course we must obey the rules....

... but when the rules stop people doing thing which are quite obviously 100% fine in all other respects other than being against the rules then it undermines the credibility of the rules.

We can strive to improve the quality of the rules - don't you think?

What cost can an economy bear for the sake of unaccountable 'safe' decisions?
£500,000,000?

(nigelh - bet you love being told what to do by 'nanny' - eh?;))

Are there rules about only flying aircraft types for which you have a licence? Are there rules for only flying aircraft which have an appropriate airworthiness certificate? Why should flying in airspace be treated any differently. I'm an Air Traffic Controller and our priority is safety, it seems a real shame that some portions of the aviation community don't view safety in quite the same way :hmm:

BD

BDioNu,

I agree with you 100%. This thread is just loaded with "Experts" who think they know better. Give them the responsibility to say "YES IT IS OK TO FLY" and risk several hundred thousand lives an hour and watch their little pink arses fall out.

I never read such a total crock of sh-one-t in my life.

If you look at the sattelite imagery the cloud has almost encircled UK and down into Europe. Where can anything fly with a 100% chance of not getting goosed by the ash.

Maybe they should have watched the Sky Documentary re-run of FLIGHT BA-009 from Perth last night. The paint jobs alone would run into millions.

If there is doubt - there is no doubt. I just take people to work and back. I understand the more difficult decisions for EMS/SAR pilots and their management because they are not just taking people to work and back - are they!!!

Well done NATS for having the balls to make a tough decision without waiting for the body count.

It's not NATS decision to make, nor any of the other ANSP's throughout Europe who have responded similarly, it's a government decision.

BD

BdioNu,

Well OK then, well done to whoever in the Government had the balls to make....blah blah..blah.............................

DB

looking for trouble.....
 

This is one of the Finnish F-18's which went to play with the cloud - note the date:
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/g...x?ItemID=33774

PICTURES: Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust ...
Link is here:
PICTURES: Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust-16/04/2010-London-Flightglobal.com

As for rules... sure if there is doubt then no doubt.
but if there is no doubt then don't doubt too much.

Only IFR are banned ... VFR are not banned ... how does the ash know what the flight rules of the pilot are? Good rules are good ...

........ and sure it's a difficult decision - can this stuff be seen and can safe passage routes be established? How much would it cost ? Is it worth it? Do we care? Could we do better?

Just like Y2K.............................like every other uninformed opinion on here.

Y2K was a non-event because the risk was seen, mitigated, eliminated.

Rather than wait until an aircraft blunders into a high ash concentration area the risk has been seen, mitigated..............

You can blame the endless parade of ambulance chasers and greedy 'victims' for the level of caution.

I am reading that a lot of European airline staff are quite worried about this at the moment due to the financial losses that the airlines will be taking from this event.
What effect is it to the helicopter staff over there? Will some companies be fitting FDC Aerofilters and take advantage of the demand? Will others look like shutting down until it clears? What will the North Sea oil companies do.. go to boats? West African touring crew.. what are your plans for rotations?
It certainly has the potential to change aviation in Europe and the people that rely on it for a living.

It will be interesting to see just how long this goes on before there is a massive climbdown by the govt/NATS/CAA/met office and business gets back to normal - the eruptions haven't stopped and the weather pattern seems set to stay.

No one doubts that flying through volcanic ash is bad for engines but at what concentration of ash does it become a factor? The 1982 incident happened in an ash cloud so dense it looked like thick 'normal' cloud - what is above most of UK and the surrounds is barely visible to the naked eye.

Since what there is of the ash cloud seems to be easily trackable by satellite and forecastable in track by the met office, why not route aircraft round the 'high risk' areas and get on with it?

We seem to be victims of an internationally agreed protocol where 'volcanic ash' seems to be the trigger for a chicken-licken 'the sky is falling down' reaction rather than accepting that volcanic ash is present in the atmosphere all the time and defining concentrations that are either safe or not to fly in.

If I was an airline boss I would be demanding some decent scientific evidence of concentration level Vs risk.

CRAB, why do you beleive that the management should be able to determine when we should be flying (re "If I were an airline boss") if you actually work in civil aviation you would know that the management would want us flying regardless of what risks exists (generally) and it is only through sound regulation, hindisght and experience that systems are put in place to prevent this kind of attitude.

What kind oif "climbdown" are you expecting. Is it that eventually we will fly and say see...SEE....I haven't died.

God save the unsuspecting passengers from the likes of you and the others on this forum who have suddenly become VULCONOLOGIST ENGINE SPECIALISTS in less than a few days.

I have no idea how much ash constitutes risk and I would hazard a guess that the powers that be probably are not 100% sure either.

What is definitley sure is that no-one will be put at risk if aircraft do not fly in the ash cloud.

This volcano could go on for weeks....months and I am sure that eventually other factors will come into play. More information. Data on how the ash is concetrated and where.

I am pretty sure that in my lifetime...no volcanos have erupted near the UK and Northern europe before, so it is going to take some time for the Authorities to create a safe operating environment around such phenomenom and feel comfortable again about the risk to passengers and crews.

Making a tough decision is just that....TOUGH. Tough because to reverse that decision you need a definitive change in circumstances, perception and/or attitude.

I am more than happy to wait for the Authorities to come up with a definitive answer.

DB

Double Bogey - you must be expecting to continue to be paid while you "wait out the volcano". In short order, no revenue, no payroll.

And no manager is going to risk damage costs in excess of revenue. Darwinism of the capital system.