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helispotter 18th October 2023 22:25


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 11523286)
A Service Life Extension Program ... without actually doing anything? That's an odd claim...

I did wonder how the original 30 year lifespan was arrived at and in turn, how NHI are now instead contemplating a 50 year lifespan. I think they might be saying no major re-working of the airframe would be needed?? They are also probably not saying any individual aircraft are necessarily expected to last 50 years of service, rather the basic design. That has certainly been the case for many other aircraft types, including some helicopters.

To put 50 years into perspective, consider the currently active thread "For Wessex fans". G-WSEX was built in October 1966 so is now 57 years old and still flying (though with some pauses through life by the look of it: https://www.helis.com/database/cn/792/ ). Not sure what forms of significant upgrades the Wessex had through its life. In the meantime it would simply be a case of managing to get hold of airworthy spare parts for the type to keep it flying!

helispotter 18th October 2023 23:09


Originally Posted by ARRAKIS (Post 11486334)
A full list of FY 2023 reimbursement rates can be found below. Around 4 k$ for a UH-60M. Approximately 8 k$ for a CH-47F.

https://comptroller.defense.gov/Port...3/2023_b_c.pdf

EDIT
I'm just wondering, what would be, within the same organization, the rate for an AW101 comparing to a CH-47F?

Having studied the informative document at the link provided by ARRAKIS some weeks back, particularly the last two pages giving rates for rotary wing fleet, I have some questions regarding the rates listed as there are some curious features. Hopefully ARRAKIS or others might have some explanation:

(1) I assume O&M means "Operation and Maintenance" including fuel, parts and maintenance personnel costs but excluding aircrew costs?

(2) It looks like charge-out rates for "Other DoD components" waive the "MilPers" costs, however such costs are included when aircraft provided for other 'clients'. Foreign Military Sales (FMS) 'clients' are charged a somewhat higher rate for "MilPers" ranging between about 3-10% more than others, depending on the helicopter type. In any event, "MilPers" percentage of total rate for "All Other Users" remains as low as 0.7% to 10.7% so isn't particularly significant.

(3) I wasn't sure what "Asset Utl" account was about under the "All Other Users" category of 'client', but it turns out this is consistently about a 4% addition to the total charge-out rate beyond "O&M" + "MilPers".

(4) ARRAKIS noted the reimbursement rates for UH-60M was around 4 k$, or US$3,956 per hour to be precise. This is for the "O&M" component so excludes at least aircrew salaries. But looking across the range of UH-60 variants shown in the list, this "O&M" rate varies significantly from only US$2,697 for the Army MH-60K & L (special ops) variants to as much as US$6666 for the Air Force HH-60G (Pave Hawk) variant. That is almost a 4.3x difference. There is even a stark difference between the UH-60A (at US$6266) and the UH-60M (at US$3956). What could explain these significant differences? In contrast, there is no difference in reimbursable rate for CH-47D vs CH-47F versions of Chinook.

(5) How is it that reimbursable rate for HH-60G could be around 1.6x times that for the Chinook? Is it perhaps related to this being a limited fleet with a lack of 'economy of scale' for operation of the Air Force Pave Hawk?

I had originally intended to try to correlate costs against parameters such as installed power, MTOW etc, but given the broad spread of UH-60 variant rates there is obviously more to it than a narrow scatter about some basic cost trendlines!

Doors Off 19th October 2023 07:44


Originally Posted by 212man (Post 11522094)
The dedicated thread had some rumours, that resulted in the posters being flamed! But, I suspect time will show them to be true.

Rumor is…..allegedly, possibly could be true, or could not be true, the current cheese of 16 Bde Svn has said that the investigation won’t be released and anybody who leaks info will have their careers ended.

One does wonder what was the cause of the accident. It would appear from the lack of Maintenance bulletins, restrictions etc on the global fleet, plus the rumored “shush” request, that the aircraft wasn’t the issue?

60FltMech 19th October 2023 14:19

“There is even a stark difference between the UH-60A (at US$6266) and the UH-60M (at US$3956). What could explain these significant differences? In contrast, there is no difference in reimbursable rate for CH-47D vs CH-47F versions of Chinook.”

Those are indeed pretty significant differences, not sure why that would be, other than the UH-60A May have more significant costs associated with airframe condition due to age? Those numbers could be possibly be inflated depending on the timeframe that the information was gathered.

For example, the 9 aircraft (UH-60A) that were initially assigned to the Air Ambulance Detachment I worked at were pulled out of long term storage from bases in Germany, they were all veterans of multiple tours of duty (Iraq or Afghanistan) and required a significant amount of time and cost to bring them up to a reliable fleet.

This kind of effort was repeated across a number of bases State Side as all UH-72A were pulled out of Air Ambulance service and sent to Ft. Rucker to become part of the training fleet there, in around the 2015-17 timeframe.

I think we spent over $1.5 million USD on parts alone on those aircraft the first (partial) year we had them, If memory serves. I don’t know if maintenance man hours counts towards this cost per hour number but that would have been a significant cost in our case due to overtime pay.

At any rate, would be very interesting to know exactly how the cost is actually computed. Of course, there may be a significant amount of smoke and or mirrors involved in these calculations, as anyone dealing with any government entity for any amount of time would know….

FltMech

helispotter 19th October 2023 23:22


Originally Posted by 60FltMech (Post 11523893)
...not sure why that would be, other than the UH-60A May have more significant costs associated with airframe condition due to age?...

...At any rate, would be very interesting to know exactly how the cost is actually computed. Of course, there may be a significant amount of smoke and or mirrors involved in these calculations, as anyone dealing with any government entity for any amount of time would know….

FltMech

Thanks for your insights.

A summary of Black Hawk variants is provided by Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_UH-60_Black_Hawk

If I interpret it correctly, MH-60L is based on UH-60L which in turn seem to be upgraded UH-60A's with T700-GE-701C originally fitted (to the L's) in place of T700-GE-700 (for A's). Yet MH-60L, of which only 37 produced and with all its 'extras', is one of the pair with the lowest listed O&M rate of all the variants. So if they are built from refurbished UH-60A's, perhaps cost of refurbishment of the older airframes and renewal of engines was absorbed under a different (acquisition) budget and so became 'invisible'?

Yes, I always wonder about 'smoke and mirrors' or simply inconsistent cost accounting (such as 'acquisition costs' paid twice for one airframe) corrupting what might otherwise be a nice dataset.

60FltMech 20th October 2023 13:57

You are right, a sideways glance at the MH-60L numbers seem most warranted. Any aircraft with the MH designation will cost more due to the nature of the mission, those aircraft are worked very hard their whole lives and are equipped with a number of systems the standard versions aren’t, the numbers simply aren’t believable.

There has to be some context missing. Perhaps the numbers were compiled at a time of low utilization of the airframes, MH-60L have been replaced by the 60M variant, the variants are so dissimilar as far as cockpit layout and systems that it seems unlikely the 60L would still be used in a limited training role, but who knows?

FltMech

Lonewolf_50 20th October 2023 19:49


Originally Posted by helispotter (Post 11524150)
If I interpret it correctly, MH-60L is based on UH-60L which in turn seem to be upgraded UH-60A's with T700-GE-701C originally fitted (to the L's) in place of T700-GE-700 (for A's).

Not quite right.
A to L: Higher Gross Weight, Improved Durability Gear Box (didn't have the 3000 hour life limit like the A's) and a bunch of changes to the structure of the aircraft to handle the increased max gross. There was an an extensive A to L conversion program undertaken by the Army. Yes, engine upgrades were there also.

Yet MH-60L, of which only 37 produced and with all its 'extras', is one of the pair with the lowest listed O&M rate of all the variants.
Who do you think operated those variants? Won't further comment on MH-60L.

A to L is IIRC from the Maintenance / Overhaul budget, not the acquisition budget. I am a little bit familiar with the original MH-60R upgrade from the SH-60B and SH-60F. The only way that was possible was to get it from rework money, not new program money, because there was no new program money to fund it during the Clinton administration.
(That approach ended up being a bit of a bust, as the lot 13 base line had to deal with early lot aircraft that had been ridden hard and put away wet).
Built new was the ultimate path forward for that, once a new administration showed up with funds for acquisition, and it got them into the fleet.

Back to Blackhawk
Yes, there is a bit of smoke and mirrors involved in moving money around. It is an arcane art ... :p

helispotter 21st December 2023 21:49

I have already posted this link on the Queensland MRH90 crash specific thread (as reference is made to that crash) but also adding to this thread. It doesn't make for good reading, and comes across as being somewhat bloody minded:

https://asiapacificdefencereporter.c...n-helicopters/

While reliability and availability issue of NH90 / MRH90 didn't sound unique to Australia, some of what I have read did still give me a sense there was a 'camp' in the ADF who just wanted Blackhawk regardless. Also appears there are some in the ADF who can see that is the case and are speaking up, but can't do it officially (Kym Bergmann possibly being informed in that way).

ANAO has been critical of this acquisition project, but perhaps now they should revisit the subject and also look at the disposal decisions and the process for acquisition of the replacement Blackhawk instead.

60FltMech 26th December 2023 17:49

I read the article linked, seems to me there are a couple of possibilities regarding what was reported:

1. The author is 100% correct and is reporting factually what is happening to the NH-90 fleet, and the events surrounding the replacement of the NH-90 in Australian service. Governments quite simply make the worst decisions regarding a lot of things, so parting out and disposing of otherwise useful (to someone) airframes wouldn’t be a uniquely stupid decision.

I look at what my government (USA) does regarding defense systems and shake my head fairly often. Just look at the debacle that all variants of the F-35 have turned out to be, as an example. The amount of $$$ burned on that system if maddening.

So to was the amount of equipment left in Afghanistan to be repurposed for Taliban use, its just too expensive to bring back home or take somewhere else.

So, would I be shocked at Australia giving away NH-90 parts and burying the stripped airframes? Nope. But there may be something else happening that is closer to the truth but not as wasteful?

2. Not all airframes are being stripped and buried. Maybe condition wise, there are issues with some airframes that render them not economically viable to retain or repair, for whatever reason, and those are indeed being stripped and buried? Maybe these were involved in previously unknown mishaps that didn’t cause death or bodily harm.

I can tell you from experience as it relates to the US Army, lots of things happen that don’t make it out into the news that are significant events damage wise. And the aircraft get repaired and put back into service(or sometimes not) and nobody but the service paying the bills and the people working on it know it ever happened.

As for the discussion of a nefarious cabal axing the NH-90 in favor of the Blackhawk, just because of some sort of nostalgia they have for it, I’ll agree that it’s just as possible as the reports surrounding the demise of the NH-90 aircraft themselves.

It could also be that those making this decision are correct and that the UH-60 is better for use in Australian service, and the nostalgia they are harkening back to was something that was more easily maintainable, available and fit for purpose for the missions that they find themselves doing.

Maybe Blackhawk is “like a farm tractor”, but not in the derogatory way the one anonymous ADF source in the article laments, because, let’s be real: the two machines are contemporaries in capability. They both have all the modern systems a frontline medium helicopter of today has to offer and fairly similar performance.

Just maybe it is “like a farm tractor” in the way that it stands up to the rigors of use in austere conditions that a frontline medium helicopter has to endure, in training or combat, and that’s what is driving this change?

The only other commentary from the article that I found interesting is the raising of the point, again, about Blackhawks lack of a float system. This seems an interesting point, and I honestly don’t know how many militaries have adopted such systems to their maritime helicopter fleets. A quick perusal of the internet did bring me up a link to a Taiwanese govt report, part of which I’ll quote below:

“Due to the history of the SH-60B/F and HH-60H floating systems, engine reliability improvements and MH-60R/S project upgrades, the floating system is not installed in the MH-60R and MH-60S. The integration of floating systems raises some safety risks, including the blocking of flight crews' emergency escape routes. Because of these risks, the MH-60R has never been designed to contain a floating system. The MH-60R is followed by the development of the MH-60S, and the floating system is not considered. The survival rate of the shipwreck was basically the same before and after the system was removed.”

At any rate, this has gone way long and honestly none of this really matters much in the long run. No aircraft is perfect for every situation and indeed some are running NH-90 with seemingly no issues, others aren’t and it appears ADF ran into something they couldn’t overcome.

FltMech

chopper2004 27th December 2023 15:16


Originally Posted by 60FltMech (Post 11562555)
I read the article linked, seems to me there are a couple of possibilities regarding what was reported:

1. The author is 100% correct and is reporting factually what is happening to the NH-90 fleet, and the events surrounding the replacement of the NH-90 in Australian service. Governments quite simply make the worst decisions regarding a lot of things, so parting out and disposing of otherwise useful (to someone) airframes wouldn’t be a uniquely stupid decision.

I look at what my government (USA) does regarding defense systems and shake my head fairly often. Just look at the debacle that all variants of the F-35 have turned out to be, as an example. The amount of $$$ burned on that system if maddening.

So to was the amount of equipment left in Afghanistan to be repurposed for Taliban use, its just too expensive to bring back home or take somewhere else.

So, would I be shocked at Australia giving away NH-90 parts and burying the stripped airframes? Nope. But there may be something else happening that is closer to the truth but not as wasteful?

2. Not all airframes are being stripped and buried. Maybe condition wise, there are issues with some airframes that render them not economically viable to retain or repair, for whatever reason, and those are indeed being stripped and buried? Maybe these were involved in previously unknown mishaps that didn’t cause death or bodily harm.

I can tell you from experience as it relates to the US Army, lots of things happen that don’t make it out into the news that are significant events damage wise. And the aircraft get repaired and put back into service(or sometimes not) and nobody but the service paying the bills and the people working on it know it ever happened.

As for the discussion of a nefarious cabal axing the NH-90 in favor of the Blackhawk, just because of some sort of nostalgia they have for it, I’ll agree that it’s just as possible as the reports surrounding the demise of the NH-90 aircraft themselves.

It could also be that those making this decision are correct and that the UH-60 is better for use in Australian service, and the nostalgia they are harkening back to was something that was more easily maintainable, available and fit for purpose for the missions that they find themselves doing.

Maybe Blackhawk is “like a farm tractor”, but not in the derogatory way the one anonymous ADF source in the article laments, because, let’s be real: the two machines are contemporaries in capability. They both have all the modern systems a frontline medium helicopter of today has to offer and fairly similar performance.

Just maybe it is “like a farm tractor” in the way that it stands up to the rigors of use in austere conditions that a frontline medium helicopter has to endure, in training or combat, and that’s what is driving this change?

The only other commentary from the article that I found interesting is the raising of the point, again, about Blackhawks lack of a float system. This seems an interesting point, and I honestly don’t know how many militaries have adopted such systems to their maritime helicopter fleets. A quick perusal of the internet did bring me up a link to a Taiwanese govt report, part of which I’ll quote below:

“Due to the history of the SH-60B/F and HH-60H floating systems, engine reliability improvements and MH-60R/S project upgrades, the floating system is not installed in the MH-60R and MH-60S. The integration of floating systems raises some safety risks, including the blocking of flight crews' emergency escape routes. Because of these risks, the MH-60R has never been designed to contain a floating system. The MH-60R is followed by the development of the MH-60S, and the floating system is not considered. The survival rate of the shipwreck was basically the same before and after the system was removed.”

At any rate, this has gone way long and honestly none of this really matters much in the long run. No aircraft is perfect for every situation and indeed some are running NH-90 with seemingly no issues, others aren’t and it appears ADF ran into something they couldn’t overcome.

FltMech

Spot on, there and i agree especially on your last couple of paragraphs as i have said exactly the same thing when peeps in the industry or enthusiasts ask me about the NH90, my response is "depending on who you talk to and who operates it". Mate of mine flew NH90 NFH in naval service of and did not have a bad word to say about flying it bar logistics and support system, which struggled. But again that has been an issue with a few operators, because going up from a Huey or Lynx to complex NH90, requires different mind set re the support and stuff.

AAAC issues with Tiger, I believe from what i hear and read, goes back to where they were finally assembled...

cheers

60FltMech 27th December 2023 16:21

I guess the main thing that jumps out to me is how the implication, at least from this particular news source, is that ADF are so technically incompetent that they can’t maintain their aircraft while everyone else can(excepting of course the several other nations that have had enough of whatever is going on that they are replacing their NH90 fleets as well).

This is being directed at a service that seems to be able to operate and maintain CH-47F, which is not exactly easy and that has operated UH-60 previously, not to mention other types they have in service across all branches of Australia's military.

It’s curious to me that Italy appears to operate the largest NH90 fleet, without a lot of complaints. Could there be preferential treatment by the OEMs for their fleet? Or is it down to usage?

The European Security & Defense news site reported on 02 October of this year, on the occasion of the delivery of the 56th and final NH90 for Italian service:

The first Italian NH90 was delivered in 2011, since which time the Italian fleet has logged more than 35,000 flight hours in Italy and on international operations.”

35,000 hours in 11 years. I feel like a fleet used this gently would be easier to maintain but maybe I’m missing something?

Again, if it’s working for others, great. But the tone of reporting, at least for this article that was originally posted(and past articles from the same source), seems to take great offense to the ADF position and experience regarding this aircraft and spends a lot of time attributing dark motives to those in charge, instead of considering a more straightforward explanation as to why they are choosing a different platform.

FltMech





Rotorbee 27th December 2023 17:39

Who in his right mind would burry 40+ aircraft? The individuals responsible for that decision would not burry their car in their backyard just because the heater failed.

Somebody who wants a Ferrari and is used to a pickup truck (an ute if I remember right) cannot complain that it is more expensive to maintain. The NH90 is more complex than a UH-1.
Give the ships to Ukraine. They will show you how to operate them.

Doors Off 28th December 2023 10:59

Bergman’s article highlights another truly sad chapter for the Aus Army Air Corps. Billions wasted. Lives wasted. People wasted.

The article eludes to some very, very accurate rumours about both “aircraft accidents”. Not to blame anybody on either aircraft, as all aircrew make mistakes every time they take to the skies. Shutting down the incorrect engine, is not an aircraft issue. Flying into the Ocean, is not an aircraft issue. I’ll emphasise again, everybody makes errors.

However, for an organisation to utilise those events to discard a platform and not get to the real causes of the events, means they are doomed to repeat the events again, this time in their shiny Blackhawks, just like the first time they had them. Sadly, the innocent will die and the hierarchy will abandon them and their maintainers and support staff.

Cyclic Hotline 28th December 2023 15:09

Key Metrics?
 
​​

They outperform Blackhawk in all key metrics – speed, range, payload and cabin volume.


I think one of your key metrics is glaringly absent - availability!

While NH Industries pump out all kinds of ridiculous PR bumph about this platform and their commitment (inability) to support it, they must love this dude writing these articles as without a single identifiable reference, he produces stories like this which sound like the manufacturers crew down the pub, regaling the version they would like everyone to hear

As so much of what is reported in this article is either occuring secretly, anonymously, or at the behest of a secret and unidentifiable group of conspirators, can anyone shed some factual light on this?

60FltMech 28th December 2023 18:22

“The article eludes to some very, very accurate rumours about both “aircraft accidents”. Not to blame anybody on either aircraft, as all aircrew make mistakes every time they take to the skies. Shutting down the incorrect engine, is not an aircraft issue. Flying into the Ocean, is not an aircraft issue. I’ll emphasise again, everybody makes errors.”

Absolutely correct regarding crew errors and accidents, I don’t believe anyone would dispute this. However, I can’t find where the ADF have chosen to end their NH90 usage based solely on accidents.

“However , for an organisation to utilise those events to discard a platform and not get to the real causes of the events, means they are doomed to repeat the events again, this time in their shiny Blackhawks, just like the first time they had them. Sadly, the innocent will die and the hierarchy will abandon them and their maintainers and support staff.”

Again, I’ll agree with you here that blaming the aircraft would not serve to correct accident trends and those issues would still occur whatever aircraft was in service. But i also don’t think it could be argued that lack of availability of training time in the actual aircraft is also a big contributor to accidents


Since the accident report for the latest incident isn’t even out yet, how are we so sure that this is what is happening within the ADF? How do we know what measures are being taken within those organizations? Are we privy to what is being discussed by the crews and their commanders in their briefing rooms?

As I understand it, Australian Army aviation is a very close nit group, whose members were all likely to have been closely, even personally affected by the loss of life from the latest accident.

Once again, I may be proven wrong in the future, but there are a lot of allegations of cold, callous actions by ADF leadership that may be wholly unfounded.

FltMech



Blackhawk9 28th December 2023 22:36

I just returned from a reunion of my old Sqn mates , most of which went on to MRH and Tiger after BH, all said the MRH generally outperformed Black Hawk in all areas except tactical landings and the SF/CT role, the problem was there was never enough serviceable to do the roles, the ADF was about to buy 15 Bell 429 to supplement the MRH in the SF/CT role, when the MRH was dumped the 429 order never went ahead as they were not needed with the Black Hawk coming back into the role, those who had direct dealings with NH industries (WO's and Maj and above now retired) all said it was hard work, but the thing that got me was almost to a man when you ask them which machine would you operate in combat it was the BH over the MRH almost every time.
The guys who went Tigar said the same dealing with Airbus was a like constantly headbutting a wall, when the French took Tiger on ops they had a 30 man Airbus support team to keep 3-4 aircraft flying, so Airbus can say they have done operational flying and performed, you can't keep a fleet of A/C going with that level of support in real life. The Guys still in have said now dealing with Lockheed Martin(Sikorsky) and Boeing the stress levels have dropped considerably and a light can be seen at the end of the tunnel at last.

LTP90 29th December 2023 16:13


Originally Posted by 60FltMech (Post 11562934)

35,000 hours in 11 years. I feel like a fleet used this gently would be easier to maintain but maybe I’m missing something?

that works out to like only 56 hours a year per aircraft. Not exactly a ton of flying.

dascanio 30th December 2023 15:43


Originally Posted by LTP90 (Post 11563993)
that works out to like only 56 hours a year per aircraft. Not exactly a ton of flying.

maybe they were “gently” used, but the first was delivered in 2011, the last in 2023, so, your average does not mean much…

212man 30th December 2023 21:06


Originally Posted by dascanio (Post 11564615)
maybe they were “gently” used, but the first was delivered in 2011, the last in 2023, so, your average does not mean much…

I'm not sure any adjusting of the metrics will turn that into a productive flying rate

megan 31st December 2023 01:46


I feel like a fleet used this gently would be easier to maintain but maybe I’m missing something
Objects sitting idle tends to rust, requiring lots of maintenance. ;)

Doors Off 31st December 2023 05:26


Originally Posted by 212man (Post 11564773)
I'm not sure any adjusting of the metrics will turn that into a productive flying rate

If only the 1987-1997 AAAC Blackhawk Flying hours v Airframe numbers were available. You would probably find that the MRH out flew the Blackhawk. Is it the child or the parent?

Blackhawk9 31st December 2023 06:30


Originally Posted by Doors Off (Post 11564909)
If only the 1987-1997 AAAC Blackhawk Flying hours v Airframe numbers were available. You would probably find that the MRH out flew the Blackhawk. Is it the child or the parent?

A lot more than MRH , 88 to 94 the fleet all flew out their first 500 Hrly each and alot were on second so approx 30,000+ in first 6 years (88 initial delivery to 6 in service, 89-13 delivered 19 in service, 90-18 delivered 37 in service, 91- 2 delivered 39 in service), in 2011 the fleet flew 8300 hrs alone.

ARRAKIS 26th January 2024 12:31

End of the MRH-90.
Australia Is Literally Burying Its Doomed NH90 Helicopter Fleet (thedrive.com)

gsa 26th January 2024 14:32


Originally Posted by ARRAKIS (Post 11583968)


Destroy the evidence so it doesn’t come back and bite you on the arse at a future date.

That lights normal! 26th January 2024 23:18


Originally Posted by ARRAKIS (Post 11583968)

Should be putting an ex defence minister in the same grave.

chopper2004 13th June 2024 17:56

Upgrade Program launched
 
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/p...ramme-launched

cheers

chopper2004 20th December 2024 18:17

Airbus delivers first NH90 Standard 3 to Spain
 
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/p...0-to-spainThis second batch, which includes 23 NH90 helicopters, foresees the delivery of a total of 16 Standard 3 helicopters, ten of which will equip the Spanish Army Air Mobile Forces (FAMET), while six will go to the Air and Space Force. The Spanish Navy will receive seven navalised helicopters. Deliveries will be staggered from December 2024 to 2028.

The first NH90 for the Spanish Navy in tactical transport version (MSPT) is in the process of finalising its Type Certificate from the Spanish Airworthiness Authority and is already in Albacete awaiting its final delivery to the DGAM in the coming weeks. The Spanish Navy personnel, belonging to the 14th Squadron, have already started their training at the Albacete plant to begin operations with their first NH90.


cheers

Cyclic Hotline 15th July 2025 15:51

And another one bites the dust. https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/b...-cost-minister

Belgium, to retire NH90 TTH fleet alleging high maintenance cost: minister

ByMiquel Ros
July 13, 2025, 12:33 (UTC +3)Defense https://www.aerotime.aero/images/202...on-800x500.jpg NH90 Caiman at the Paris Air ShowBelgium announced on July 10, 2025, its decision to retire from service its remaining four NH90 Tactical Transport Helicopters (TTH) from September 1, 2025.

In a rather scathing post on his X account, Belgian defense minister Theo Francken, attributed the decision to the high costs associated to the operation of this helicopter type. “Bad purchase. Extremely expensive to maintain. Replacements are coming in 2026.” he said.
While this decision concerns the four NH90 TTHs operated in land missions, the naval component of the Belgian Armed Forces will retain another four NH90, which are fitted for search and rescue and anti-submarine missions.

The NH90 is a medium-weight helicopter developed by NHIndustries (NHI), a pan-European consortium formed in the early 1990s by Eurocopter (a Franco-German venture which is now part of Airbus Helicopters), Italian helicopter maker Agusta (the precursor to Leonardo) and Dutch aerospace firm Stork Fokker Aerospace (now Fokker Aerostructures).

Once hailed as one of the flagship projects of the European aerospace defense industry, the NH-90 has been plagued by a series of problems which have led several operators to retire their fleets earlier than originally planned.

In particular, the NH-90 has been criticized for its high operational costs, which may range, depending on the sources consulted, between €12,000 and €20,000 per flight hour, as well as for being an aircraft which is difficult to maintain.

Prior to the Belgian decision, two prominent NH90 operators, Norway and Australia, had already announced their decision to withdraw their fleets from service, blaming operational unreliability and costs.

These complaints, however, have not deterred other countries from ordering more units of the type. France, for example, placed two consecutive orders, for 10 and 8 NH90 helicopters, respectively, in 2020 and 2023. These additional helicopters are intended for use by the French Army’s special forces and will be delivered between 2027 and 2029.

Vietnam is also reported to have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to acquire an undisclosed number of NH90 helicopters during a state visit to the country by French President Emmanuel Macron in May 2025.



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ORAC 28th July 2025 12:27

………….

​​​​​​​@JanesINTEL told by FAé chief, Gen Geert De Decker, that Belgium is to replace its 4 soon-to-be retired NH90 TTHs in the first instance with the 15 H145Ms ordered in 2024 and being delivered from 2026 (also replacing A109s), with upwards of 8 'heavy-lift' helicopters to be acquired later.

Story to come...

Cyclic Hotline 3rd October 2025 04:38

Yet another satisfied customer!
 
At a time when Europe and NATO is under serious stress, the credibility and capability of many military platforms requires an objective review, as they present a serious detriment and exposure of the ability of Europe to defend itself. These shortfalls have been apparent for a significant time, with no remedy forthcoming. Lots of plans and talk, but no consequential outcomes.

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/norwa...05b-16016.html

casper64 3rd October 2025 11:29


Originally Posted by Cyclic Hotline (Post 11963512)
At a time when Europe and NATO is under serious stress, the credibility and capability of many military platforms requires an objective review, as they present a serious detriment and exposure of the ability of Europe to defend itself. These shortfalls have been apparent for a significant time, with no remedy forthcoming. Lots of plans and talk, but no consequential outcomes.

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/norwa...05b-16016.html

Other customers, even in relatively remote parts of the world considering logistics, seem to be doing relatively fine, so maybe there is some issues with these operators as well. Either operationally or even politically. Yes, it is an expensive and complicated piece of equipment that you cannot operate as if it’s a Huey or something.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/a...ss-tasman-sea/

helispotter 3rd October 2025 13:45


Originally Posted by Cyclic Hotline (Post 11963512)
At a time when Europe and NATO is under serious stress, the credibility and capability of many military platforms requires an objective review, as they present a serious detriment and exposure of the ability of Europe to defend itself. These shortfalls have been apparent for a significant time, with no remedy forthcoming. Lots of plans and talk, but no consequential outcomes.

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/norwa...05b-16016.html

Wow, that is a bold claim by Norway:

"The total cost of the project in 2001, including the helicopters and all associated expenses, was 5.75 billion Norwegian kroner roughly €0.5 billion, the initial claim amount. Now, the figure has risen to 33 billion NOK, or €2.83 billion. This sum combines the original NH90 procurement cost, operational expenses over the years, and the cost of purchasing new American HH-60W helicopters, amounting to an additional €1.09 billion."

How do they justify also claiming "operational expenses"? I could understand it if the helicopters were never able to fly and then the cost of upkeep of helicopters unable to be used could reasonably be claimed. I also can't see how the cost of an alternative type could be used as part of the total claim. Surely that cost would have been incurred had HH-60 been selected in the first place instead of NH-90. Perhaps the Norwegian strategy is from the negotiation rule book: Make an ambit claim and then settle out of court for a lower final compensation amount.

I had previously felt that perhaps some people in the Australian Army just developed a set against the NH-90 (MRH-90) but with so many countries doing similar in ditching the type, I have to reconsider. Still, was the main problem 'simply' a lack of adequate logistics support for the type? I think the type being tagged as an unsafe helicopter within some quarters in Australia was unfair and just aimed at forcing the desired outcome of getting rid of them for other reasons.

Winnie 3rd October 2025 20:48

Could it be that the mission packages were never able to be implemented, and the massive overages on maintenance time vs. what was advertized. there were a huge amount (for Norway) pilots and engineers re-treaded from fixed wing to rotor, including some going to Allied Wings in Canada, and moving to new bases etc, for an aircraft that never really materialized. a LOT of wasted money for an airframe that never really reached operational capability, even in its Coast guard role...

helispotter 3rd October 2025 22:57


Originally Posted by Winnie (Post 11964029)
Could it be that the mission packages were never able to be implemented, and the massive overages on maintenance time vs. what was advertized...

Winnie, you make a good point. But defence forces shouldn't be reliant on "what was advertised", they should make sure that what was advertised becomes contractual conditions as well. That can include cost and time required for maintenance. I realise this makes a contract more difficult to negotiate but it prevents empty promises. Too many defence projects in Australia start with rose coloured glasses about the relationship with the prime contractor and then turn to custard probably with no robust contract to turn to.

Can you see a case for how Norwegians could also claim cost of an alternate replacement helicopter? I can't.

Bengo 4th October 2025 13:56


Originally Posted by helispotter (Post 11964091)

Can you see a case for how Norwegians could also claim cost of an alternate replacement helicopter? I can't.

Something similar would be perfectly normal in a UK commercial contract, so I expect MoD has suitable words somewhere in Defence Contract Terms. It will in effect say that if the first contractor fails to perform the contracted duties the client may employ a second contractor and charge the extra costs to the first contractor.

Not easy to enforce, as the first contractor is unlikely to cooperate, very hard to value the work actually done and hell on skates to manage the second contractor who has no imperative to keep costs down. Completely useless when dealing with a monopoly contractor.

I suspect the Norwegians have decided to start their claim from the position that the machine was of no use whatever and so the entire cost of providing replacement NH90 capability now falls tothe account of the supplier. They can always walk back during hegotiations.

helispotter 4th October 2025 23:41


Originally Posted by Bengo (Post 11964465)
Something similar would be perfectly normal in a UK commercial contract, so I expect MoD has suitable words somewhere in Defence Contract Terms. It will in effect say that if the first contractor fails to perform the contracted duties the client may employ a second contractor and charge the extra costs to the first contractor...

I would be surprised if contractors signed up to an agreement that might have an open ended liability like that. In an extreme case what would stop a Defence organisation from say failing a training helicopter supply contract on a minor point then replacing the capability with a heavy lift helicopter as a supposed 'training' capability replacement and claiming the cost as compensation.

I can understand claiming costs associated with any support infrastructure or training that was required for a 'failed' type that is no longer suitable for its replacement and also the costs associated with the original acquisition project management (which wouldn't be trivial) that now has to be repeated.

jimba 20th October 2025 18:17

Surely it’s a complex logistic chain
 
After going through this thread I was disappointed in the evolution of the NH90, which was so promising it almost swept the field of competitions in the early 2000s

I was at the core of engineering in a company partnering with NHI in proposing the then new NH90 to a military customer. I have some views:

The aircraft:
1. The NH90 engines are a variant of the GE engine in the SH60B/R/S series. That can’t be a differentiator.
2. The rotor system is well proven and robust.
3. The cockpit avionics in the MH60R are controlled by Lockheed Owego and custom designed for the platform. (S-70s sold for equivalent purposes have Collins avionics that are widely used) The cockpit avionics in the NH90 are more complex with a multi-nation consortium providing them. Nevertheless, they are not so different that one would expect dramatically different maintenance requirements.
4. In the maritime versions many of the sensor systems have similar sources.

Logistics Support:
5. The nature of the multi-national consortium producing and supplying the NH90 fleet with associated reduction in accountability is surely a major contributing factor.
6. It has long been widely accepted within the aerospace industry that European companies delusionally believe they have superior logistics support, while the reality is that US companies generally are more responsive.
7. Heark back to the UK MODs decision to award the prime contract for the Merlin EH101 to Lockheed Martin which was due to poor responsiveness by Westlands and Augusta (now AgustaWestland).

I believe that consortia inherently diffuse responsibility. Single contractors are more motivated to respond to customer pressure.

European industry needs a reality check and effort to simplify and make much more responsive their supply chains.

Cyclic Hotline 24th October 2025 12:52

The NH-90 offers both a GE T700 or Safran RTM 322 engine option. Is there any correlation between powerplant installation and overall reliability?

helispotter 24th October 2025 13:14


Originally Posted by Cyclic Hotline (Post 11975683)
The NH-90 offers both a GE T700 or Safran RTM 322 engine option. Is there any correlation between powerplant installation and overall reliability?

Not sure, but the Australian MRH-90 version had an early engine issue which is reported on Wikipedia as follows: "On 20 April 2010, a MRH-90 suffered a single engine failure near Adelaide, landing safely at RAAF Base Edinburgh, with NHIndustries personnel investigating the cause. On 18 May, the ADF announced that the MRH-90 fleet was grounded due to engine issues since the April incident. The cause of the failure was determined to be the compressor blade contacting the engine casing, leading to new preventative inspections; flights resumed in July 2010."

All the Australian MRH-90s used the (then) Rolls-Royce Turbomeca RTM322-01/9.

The New Zealand Defence Force NH90's are also fitted with RTM322 but those helicopters seem to be achieving satisfactory availability.

On the Wikipedia entry for the NH90, the only operator for which the General Electric (CT7-8F) engines are specifically mentioned is Spain.

jimba 24th October 2025 14:15

Been out of the game for a long time but the launch customer for the GE T700 variant was Italy. Just as the British EH101s were RTM322 powered while the Italian ones were GE T700s. There was little to choose between the two engines so I would think most customers will have chosen based on price.

Having said that, during the development phase the airframer teams internally preferred GE because of its responsiveness as a company. At that time Rolls Royce in particular was thought to be a difficult supplier.


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