I do seem to have ruffled some feathers - I'll address some points if I can:

Brilliant, lets rely on semantics. So, if there is a fight in the terminal, or some protesters on the runway, who do BHX call? Face up to the fact that WMP are responsible for prevention / detection of crime at BHX. Yes, security of the site itself is the responsbility of BHX, but even that is most likely in conjunction with WMP.

Of course I wouldn't think that. I have also not said that it is WMP's fault their helicopter got torched, I have said that their assessment of the risk was faulty.

If that same sign from your analogy had a large copy of a press article highlighting how bad the security has been in the recent past and I still chose to park there, then I at least can't say I didn't know the risk. BHX security was subject to numerous press articles and an entire 30 documentary on prime time television. Also, my car isn't a high profile anti criminal asset and as far as I am aware I haven't acquired any "enemies" with grudges to bear (except perhaps you & Sid maybe! :rolleyes:). It all about the risk assessment... it must have been wrong for this to happen so easily.

If all else fails, bring emotions and fear back in to it? Good plan. Lets not even start the debate about why HEMS don't fly at night shall we?

Not sure if this is aimed at me or not. For the record though, I am wagging my finger only at the risk assessment and security provided. I do not feel safer, quite the contrary. As I said earlier, it was a very bad day for us all.

No. I have not at any point said what happened was right, or good. I have said the exact opposite. And my run in with two traffic cops has little to do with it.

That was Sid's point, I believe.

Helicraig,

I think you are getting there all by yourself.



Finally realised the value of what has been lost eh...!

Not so ...'Riding through the glen with his band of merry men' ...now, is it!

Mmmm, so what does all these comments point to?;


Perhaps! :eek: :confused::confused::confused::confused::eek:
:rolleyes:

HeliCraig...Do not read this;

15 June (today)
Police-helicopter-called-to-help

or even this separate story;

15 June (today)
Helicopter_called_to_help_find_missing_boy/

And while I'm at it...published today;

Eye-in-the-sky

"The fact the aircraft can re-role from being a police-based air support unit to provide medical support tand being used as an air ambulance within minutes is very significant."

The police helicopter crew was recently praised for their "brilliant work" after saving a young woman from the brink of drowning in a dramatic river rescue.

The woman had become stranded in thick mud and was neck-deep in the River Nene near Wisbech when she was dragged to safety just minutes before she would have been swallowed up by rising tidal waters.

Pictures released by Cambridgeshire police showed the moment she was spotted by the force chopper's thermal imaging camera."

Sacking
 

Hi SkidKid,

Not me mate. I was Chief Pilot at NAAS for three years (working for PAS) and then resigned to come back up to the NS to get some "Pension Time" in. Left PAS and NAAS on Good Terms.

No-one got sacked during my tenure so not sure what/who you are referring to.

Regards

Plod Bashing
 

Having read the last few pages of this thread I am feeling a bit guilty for my apparent "Plod Bashing" as I was critical of the unit and should not have been.

The Plod do an unenviable task in a pretty thankless society on the whole and all of the Bobbies I worked with up and down the Country seemed to possess an almost endless patience with members of the public that generally left me feeling pretty humbled.

Sure there are some !!!! bobbies just like there are !!!! pilots and sadly it is the minority who seem to tar the majority when they do something nasty or make a mistake.

On reflection I take the point that the AC must be at immediate readiness to make the tasks viable but somehow this has to be balanced by adequate security to ensure the AC is safe and more importantly (god forbid) that the crews (often only three alone in dead of night) are also safe.

The challenge for the Boss Bobbies is how to achieve this balance!!

Good luck to all and hope to WM get back in the air asap.

Sid,

Please stop it with the stories of the good work you do, once again resorting to emotional marketing. I have not once said that the aircraft, or the ASU (you) do anything other than an exceptional job in often very difficult circumstances. I just wouldn't do that.

What I have said is that someone at WMP has made a mistake with regard to their assessment of the security, which was patently inadequate. That is all.

I have not engaged in any personal insults or derision, so perhaps you could refrain from the same also?

Its obvious that you won't admit that someone got something wrong when they assessed the security of BHX, so we will have to agree to differ.

For the record, once and for all: What happened to the heli is awful, and can have only been perpetrated by the lowest form of life. It was a sad day for us all, and we lost a very good ship and a massive public resource. We are fortunate that no-one was hurt and it was attacked on the ground. I hope that when WMP do find the culprits that the book is thrown at them. WMP ASU (and all other ASU's) do a fantastic job on our behalf, and the world would be a darker place without them. I hope that you get back in the air pronto.

HeliCraig,

If the aircraft resides within the airport perimeter, which it does, then surely the inadequacy lies in the security of the airport perimeter itself.

Looking at the pictures, it seems once through that perimeter fence - you're in! Nothing else lies between you and any aircraft within the airport perimeter.

I'm interested to know, what would your opinion be if it was a Monarch aircraft that was attacked? Is it then Monarch who have "made a mistake with regard to their assessment of the security, which was patently inadequate"?

GD.

think...
 

Helicraig...

nice post maybe you should have thought of that a little sooner :=
rather than making a bit of a mamory of yourself :\

I've followed this thread with a mixture of fascination and disbelief.

Heli-cal made the sort of comments I expect of him and left.

Helicraig
You started with "playing the victim" in it is ever so slightly galling
What on earth does that mean? :confused:
Are they not victims of crime even if (in your opinion) they could have done more to prevent it?

If they can't look after their own helicopter it really doesn't bode well for the rest of us does it?
Was that meant to be a sensible comment or were you just trying to provoke a reaction?

You've since made several posts in similar vein.
Why is it so important to you to that others agree with you?

You may well have very good reason. Unfortunately, some police officers needlessly antagonise members of the public who would otherwise have continued to be staunch supporters. (eg By adopting an arrogant manner, or by reporting trivia instead of giving a warning.) However, I wonder if perhaps you're allowing the experience you describe to cloud your judgment here.

.

Flying Lawyer said;
 

Actually Tudor, since being informed of the sudden death of a friend, I've been quite busy and have not had the opportunity to address certain points which have been made!

OK - there have been a number of suggestions from different people, that they might move out - but where would they go :confused:

It's easy to say "buy a trolley, stick it in a hangar, surround the hangar with a trench / moat / drawbridge / electrified fencing etc." but WHERE exactly ?

The West Midlands Police area is relatively small and densely populated, meaning there would be planning permission issues / noise complaints if sited too near to houses, but it would also need to be within striking distance of their operating area to achieve the same response times.

I can't think of anywhere suitable off the top of my head - everywhere I look on my map that seems like it might be a good spot has electricity pylons and wires all over the pace, so - who knows the West Midlands area well enough from those suggesting a move - to come up with a sensible / workable alternative ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

heli-cal

I'm sorry to hear you've lost a friend.

Ironically, pointing out that you'd left the discussion was intended to be the complimentary part of my comment.

A very good point indeed. I think it comes back to public perception (which I will touch on again in a moment in reply to Tudor), but people have a higher expectation of WMP than they do of Monarch etc when it comes to organising security / assessing risk. If it were another aircraft that were damaged, people would be asking questions of BHX and WMP as to why the security was so easily circumvented, why there was no intelligence (accepting not always possible), and what would be done in future to prevent a re-occurance. This is what has been asked of Stanstead & Essex police, and London City & The Met in light of their recent security problems.

Another point of course is that generally Monarch etc don't use their aircraft to curtail the activities of criminals, and thus can reasonably expect not to attract unwanted attention from them more than WMP can. It is a very high profile anti-criminal asset afterall.

I have meant that all along, and admit that I perhaps haven't put it in every post Budgie, but my first post did contain the following statement:
And yes, I haven't made some of my points particularly well at times, however as others have presented a differing point of view mine has altered in response. Like many others, I am not always 100% right; however unlike others I am prepared to admit that and possibly change my position as I learn. Surely a benefit of an informed debate?

When I watched the video of the senior officer (think Deputy Chief Constable) giving a press statement about the incident I personally found his demeanor to be too skewed to the "we are a victim" argument. However, you are entirely correct they are indeed a victim of crime and are entitled to feel aggrieved about it.

In hindsight a bit of both. It has been a comment made to me by several people (non aviators mainly) when talking about the incident. It comes down to public perception - the majority of the population is law abiding and trusts the police. They look to the police for crime prevention advice and rely on them to prevent crime as far as possible.

As everyone else is using hypothetical scenarios to further their case: Would you take security advice from someone who was currently being burgled?

It isn't particularly. However, it's very frustrating when you make a point and it is countered with other irrelevant arguments, largely based on provoking an emotional response, and the point you are making goes unanswered.

Quite possibly, its hard for me to objective about my own opinions. However, insinuations have been made that in some way I am engaged in "Plod Bashing" or that I wish the denigrate the excellent work done by the ASU. This is not the case, or at least was not my intention. My concern / grievance is really with the poor security and risk assessment which led to a very expensive public asset being destroyed quite easily.

Precisely. As you will find in most professions I believe. Which is why I have no contention with any single police officer, other than the two who needlessly (in my opinion) wasted my time. I am positive that the vast majority of officers set out with only good intentions and are competent individuals. Of course, I will remain polite to those I encounter as I would any other person, however the actions of the two I encountered have lowered my opinion of the police as a whole. One bad apple and all that...

Now, for those of you thinking that I may be back tracking you are partly right and this post is meant in a conciliatory tone. I may have been overly aggressive and not stated my case in a particularly concise manner initially; and my opinion has changed slightly as a result of this discussion (especially the point about Monarch). However, I retain the belief that in light of the high profile warnings about BHX security, the high profile nature of the ASU and the desire for "retribution" from those who rightly feel the force of the ASU that somebody at WMP has seriously underestimated the risk of this happening.

Sorry to drag this one back up again, especially when it is a slightly off topic post!! However the latest on protecting your property!!

Police expert warns drivers not to hide car keys at home... to avoid violent confrontation with burglars | Mail Online

Gee....guess what happens when the scrotes have the weapons and the law deprives the victim's of the right and ability to defend themselves.:ugh:

Sounds like ya'll need to start killing these burglar fellers. Instead of a life sentence....how about a short drop on the end of a strong rope!:ok:

Merseyside Police Helicopter Attacked
 

Another attack that was repelled by the crew..... Nice one boys!!

Liverpool Echo.co.uk - News - Liverpool Local News - Police helicopter attacked at RAF Woodvale

And yet another, this time on the Merseyside ASU EC135 at RAF Woodvale: Police pursue helicopter vandals.

At least it sounds like they got the scrotes this time round, despite the attempt at a Ronin-style getaway.

I/C

A fairly routine night in Merseyside then.