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.......how many Wessex 5's in that hangar at Wroughton?...................
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Bertie thruster...none i'm afraid..Wroughton now belongs to the Science Museum !
However there are spare Wx and Sea Kings at Sultan. |
3D - Happy New Year chap. No - the MIRG requirement is just one more thing that those highly paid people who get to control things forgot to think about and another indicator of how unjoined-up the UK's Emergency Services response to anything is.
However, I probably wasn't the only one who was surprised that Lee and Portland didn't get at least 1 S-92 between them - if nothing else it would have saved that embarassing use of the non-auto hover S61's for night-time shifts in the Channel. CHC couldn't even give a guaranteed night wet winching capability after they had screwed up on the 139! I am sure you boys were pulling your hair out in frustration. |
Happy New Year to the SAR community
Fot those who follow ths thread but are not from an SAR background: MIRG stands for Maritime Incident Response Group and is a UK offshore firefighting capability, primarily designed to be delivered by SAR helicopter. Does anyone have the factual reason for the MIRGs no longer wishing to use the 139? Just interested as I know that they were considered in the procurement process and that they saw the layouts of the aircraft interior at a meeting in North Denes before the aircraft came into service. They were informed at that time that, if required, their deployment from the South Coast would be via two AW139 lifts. My personal opinion is that I have never been a great fan of their capability. They must be very well funded if they can 'stand up' fifteen offshore firefighting teams, each with a cadre of fifty trained firefighters and pay the MOD and MCA for an allocation of training hours. All of this for a capability that in its three years of existance has been to (I believe) three offshore fires. I think that UK plc might have been better served to have that money spent in other more 'acute' areas of the emergency services. |
Max - so well funded they have publicly declared that the Fire and Rescue Service should have its own helicopters!!! Quite what they think they would do with them is anyones' guess.
It very much sounds like empire building. I agree with you wholeheartedly re; allocation of taxpayers money in the Emergency Services. Is MIRG a white elephant? Most merchant vessels are well-equipped to help themselves or others when dealing with fire at sea and the RNLI lifeboats have plenty of firefighting capability for smaller vessels. You can't legislate for another Piper Alpha and anyway what use would a MIRG team have been then? |
Agree, the kit is usually out there on merchants ships (ignoring grey funnel at this point), but the skills and experience to fight fires at sea are not.
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.........ah... if only we lived in a perfect world......
....... we would find that not only are the police helicopters and the air ambulances co-located (security issues having been taken care of of course) but they just happen to be co-located with a combined ambulance station and fire station...... and where feasible the SAR unit can take advantage of the economies of scale.
Surely scope exists within the manning of said multi-tasking units to share pilots, share training, share back seat personnel (paramedics, winch wigglers and dangly people). Now of course it would help to find one or two types to suit all but that would be one wish too far. Why is it that the most nanniest of governments that sets out to control the way we do just about anything hasn't got the balls to bang a few heads together ands say "cut the crap - you get this or nothing, now STFU and get on with it". They wont of course because the Fire Brigades Union is too strong and the Ambulance people think they are a superior breed plus each Chief Constable thinks he is entitled to run his own little empire. When it comes to equipment we could take a lead from the Italians of course..... they wouldn't dream of using anything other than Italian made equipment - regardless of just about any other consideration. As the AW group is at least part Brit that would leave us with:- AW109 - for the puddle-jumping jobs AW 139 - for the channel-hoping jobs, and the AW101 - for ocean-going adventures Jaguars/Vauxhall/Ford/Nissan/Honda for the cops Ford/DAF trucks for the Ambulance Service Dennis for the Fire service We can always dream I suppose. G :ok: |
Geoffers
The men in white coats will collect you soon, please be patient.:D:D |
and Aston Martins for the pilots.
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Geoffers,
"bang a few heads together and say "cut the crap - you get this or nothing, now STFU and get on with it". Nice idea but it is the job of most of the idiots in government to invent the "crap" in the first place and they are hardly likely to be doing anything that would put their own jobs on the line ~ sadly! :ugh: |
Reduction in RAF Crew Numbers
Was it this thread that mentioned some time ago about a reduction in the number of RAF SAR crews? Apologies if this has already been covered but 30+ pages was too much to wade through post by post (I did use the search function).
Was the rumour false or, if true, has it been dropped; could anyone provide an update? Thanks and HNY CR |
reduction in the number of RAF SAR crews The likely result is that UK SAR coverage will be compromised. |
And you have to add in the Out Of Area detachments supported by the SARF.
We are very short of rearcrew, so short that we operated 3 shifts over Christmas at Chiv with only 12 hour cover from 0800 to 2000. The shortage is partly due to the pull from civvie St caused by the uncertainty of the future of milSAR, partly from the problems of moving the OCU and its poor serviceability, partly from slow throughput from SARTU and partly due to non-existent career management. The genius Air-rank officers who foisted the crew reduction on us were quite happy to 'take at risk' the fact that not only 2nd standby capability but 1st standby capability would be affected. It just goes to show how little the contribution of the SARF is aknowledged or valued by our 'Air Power centric' senior management. |
It seems their Airships are able to vary service levels in a way a private contractor could not do.
Perhaps the Crown should privitise the whole service and a government department who cares about it, say the coastguard, become the customer? |
The Govt still has to pay for it whichever way you spin it and the Govt are the ones who have us fighting on 2 fronts whilst cutting defence spending.
Maybe the only answer is SARH and effectively privatisation but the interim contract, seen by many as a trial run for the full event, has hardly been an overwhelming success - we still don't have the required level of cover in the Channel. The MCA don't really understand helicopters and the variations of performance/capability so any future contractor must demonstrate integrity so that they are not guilty of pulling the wool over the customers eyes just to tick contractual boxes. The trouble is that the present incumbent has already tripped over that hurdle and the remaining competitor is untried and untested in the field. Oh Dear! |
Afternoon crab, with the CG out of the picture for transporting firefighting crews and St. Mawgan finished, i know it was OCU, but a/c available. What resources are available from the RAF and or Navy to cover the Channel at the present? Just interested to know, timescales etc, regards, thorpey.
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What resources are available from the RAF and or Navy to cover the Channel
Wattisham and Culdrose would be the nearest bases but I hear that they are short on crew numbers?
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Thorpey
Sorry mon ami, but as a Channel Islander, I am afraid that for SAR purposes you are effectively French as the Channel Islands sit outside of the UK Search and Rescue Region. The MIRGs may have formally declared a capability to get to the Channel Islands but the UK SAR helicopters, that they rely on for transport, have not. |
Wattisham and Culdrose would be the nearest bases short on crew numbers Just out of interest, does anyone have information on how decisive a role the MIRG teams played at the 3 incidents to which they have apparently responded so far? For the record, I'm not having a dig, I'm genuinely interested. |
Culdrose haven't had a 2nd standby available for months due to crew shortages and we are struggling as well at the moment. However, both 1st standby crews already cover a lot of the Channel (we cover the West of Portland's patch when they are tucked up in bed:))
As far as the MIRG crews go, the only training they do with us is being winched to the ships (ferries usually), I don't know how much specific fire-fighting at sea training they get. |
Unfortunately not a lot of ship based firefighting, as their own Brigade has to pay for that part of the training and ours sees corporate courses for pen pushers as a priority. MIRG pay for the hoist and dunker training, most of what happens is tick in the box training anyway. I was aware of the large section of sea not covered by SAR, especially around the Channel Islands but i`ve never known the military/CG to not respond.
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Crab
we cover the West of Portland's patch when they are tucked up in bedhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif BTW. From my point of view, behind, the #1 engine on that "Yellow Peril" was making a lot of smoke!! Is that normal? 3D |
It's a Sea King - the only thing that smokes worse than one of those is a USAF Phantom and I don't think they have any of them any more:):)
Yes, we had just done a medtransfer to Dorchester and couldn't resist a quick visit - what a nice place to have a SAR Flt:ok: |
Torque and Crab,
Thank you for your responses ref my question about the reduction in RAF SAR crew numbers. Why is this not a headline news story if it is going to reduce SAR cover? I would like to see a government minister try and spin this one. CD |
CR - A Sunday Times article from last summer.
RAF sends air rescue crews to Afghanistan Michael Smith The Sunday Times - August 3, 2008 - The RAF is being forced to pull a fifth of its helicopter crews out of Britain’s search and rescue service and send them to Afghanistan in an attempt to stop soldiers being killed by roadside bombs. The move will drastically reduce the number of RAF Sea King helicopters available to rescue people in trouble at sea or caught in disasters such as last year’s floods. The RAF crews respond to an average of 1,000 emergency calls a year, varying from rescuing holidaymakers in difficulties to the 2004 floods that devastated the Cornish village of Boscastle. Cutting one of the five crews from each of the six RAF search and rescue stations around Britain will put at risk the current ability to respond to any emergency within an hour. The cuts, due to come into effect over the next few months, will leave most RAF search and rescue stations with only one helicopter on call instead of two, leaving no back-up for big incidents. Nick Harvey, the Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, whose North Devon constituency includes the RAF’s Chivenor search and rescue base, said: “There have to be grave concerns they will be left shorthanded.” It is the first time search and rescue crews have been cut to help frontline forces. Extra helicopters and crews in Afghanistan are seen as vital if the number of soldiers dying there is to be prevented from escalating. Twenty-seven of the last 33 soldiers killed in Afghanistan died as a result of roadside bombs or landmines. Commanders say unless they get them, more soldiers will die. Just 16 transport helicopters serve British troops in Helmand, an area five times the size of Northern Ireland. Concern over rising numbers of victims of roadside bombs led to an emergency meeting on Thursday chaired by Des Browne, the defence secretary, to raise helicopter numbers. Merlin helicopters bought from Denmark and revamped special-forces Chinooks, previously deemed too dangerous to fly, will relieve pressure in the short term. However, budget cuts could mean total helicopter numbers dropping from 525 to 220 within eight years. The importance of rescue helicopters was highlighted this weekend when an RAF crew saved six children and two fathers. They had become stranded yesterday afternoon while travelling in an inflatable boat down the River Tees at Dalton-on-Tees, North Yorkshire. With the boat trapped on an island in the middle of the rising river, the helicopter was scrambled and winched all six to safety. The MoD confirmed the cuts in crew numbers but said the RAF’s search and rescue would still have “at least one committed standby helicopter at six bases . . . This will not affect normal capability”. ……. |
...though bear in mind that this article is misleading, in that it suggests that both yellow Sea Kings and their crews are being sent to Afghanistan, whereas neither is true - people are leaving on posting, often to fill personnel shortages in Training Command (or whatever it's called these days), and not being replaced. Some choose to go SH, but it's not true that all, or even many, of those leaving the SAR Force will end up in Afghan.
The number of SAR Sea Kings will stay the same, and the intention is to maintain the same degree of cover as always (ie 1sts and 2nds) if possible. Crab is right that the chances of being able to man both aircraft at once have already been compromised at several places, and this will only get worse - and the MOD have chosen to ignore the risk. It's interesting that, to my knowledge, the 2nd Standby aircraft at the various bases have seen more action in the last two years than for some time previously (Gloucester floods, Sheffield floods, Morpeth floods, Grayrigg train crash etc, as well as 'normal' SAROps). Not for much longer though! The importance of rescue helicopters was highlighted this weekend when an RAF crew saved six children and two fathers. They had become stranded yesterday afternoon while travelling in an inflatable boat down the River Tees at Dalton-on-Tees, North Yorkshire. With the boat trapped on an island in the middle of the rising river, the helicopter was scrambled and winched all six to safety. |
Unfortunately much of that article was bo**ocks - the reduction in manning is not as a result of sending crews to the 'Stan and our yellow helicopters aren't going there either.
The reduction in crews will mean that less people going through training will be sent SAR and in theory that swells the pool of ab initios to go to SH. The flip side is that with fewer SAR posts available, fewer SH pilots will get to come to SAR for a 'rest tour' (something that doesn't happen much anyway). Fewer crews does mean less availability of 2nd standby (unless you want to cancel leave, courses, AT, liaison visits etc) and because the rearcrew are running at less than 4 radops or winchmen per flight, that has already been an issue. The MoD didn't understand the rearcrew issues and their statement about not affecting 1st standby is at odds with what we were told - ie that they were happy to accept the risk of impacting 1st standby availability. The problem is that whilst the MoD might be happy to 'accept' the risk there are Gp Capts, Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs trying to meet KPIs imposed by MoD and end up having to be creative with solutions in order to protect the integrity of UK SAR cover. The inevitable result is a lowering of morale and more people leaving the SARF. This leaves even fewer people to do the job and the OOAs and so morale takes a further downswing. The training system can't replace those leaving quickly enough (especially since many of them are the experienced operators) and so dilution of skills and experience and a reduction in real capability is inevitable. The RAF bought fast jets instead of helicopters and is run by fast jet pilots and navs who can only see Air Power in terms of pointy aircraft - one of the fundamental reasons we find ourselves in the state we are in. |
Crab....Nothing changes . Helicopters have always been the poor cousins.
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Don't know what the problem is. Soon Flt Lt Billy Wales will be there sort you all out! God bless him.
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sort you all out |
SARH
Crab, it's not that the MCA don't understand helicoters, they don't understand aviation full stop. At least, there is nobody who understands it in the right place at least. If they need somebody then I'll volunteer, failing that its a case of leading the dog to water with no gaurranttee it will get there!:(
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Tonka.
Join the queue!:D But one of the previous "Aviation Managers'" had "SAR" experience,:hmm:, and look what he left us with!!!:mad: 3D |
From what has been posted here it looks like Flt Lt Wales will be a very good thing for the RAF SAR world but likely to create something of a headache for the MoD and the government. When he starts asking tricky questions from a position of knowledge on the inside it will be very difficult to fob him off; particularly if he threatens to tell his grandmother!
Interesting times ahead. CD |
I am pleased that Prince William has settled on the RAF to further his secondary career, it is a pity that he chose Sandhurst instead of Cranwell for his initial military training. However, his total involvement with helicopters can only raise the importance they have in both war and peace, any rescue he may carry out will no doubt be well publicised, and if the lack of helicopters in our theatres in Iraq and Afghanistan is brought up again he can no doubt bring some sort of pressure to bear on those who hold the purse strings.
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There has been all sorts of thread drift and 'my dad's bigger than your dad' to-ing and fro-ing, but getting back to the point:- Crab, what you are now saying (admitting) is that the Royal Air Force can no longer be trusted to run UK SAR. Here's a thought - why don't we just privatise it? It plainly won't make much difference!:}
GtV |
Gandalf, a very warm welcome to PPRUNE. Now go away and never darken our door again.
What a pointless and antagonistic post. |
I think it's Lost at Sea's new Nom de PPrune:)
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Prince William's Wings
When Billy the Prince completes AFT does he get another pair of wings?
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I think it's Lost at Sea's new Nom de PPrune |
Trouble at Mill?
Any truth in the rumour, that some 'ginger beers' have allegedly been asked if they would come back to SAR if it was to revert to Service manning? Not sure where they would get the manpower from as the (ex) SAR folk were redeployed to other fleets when the eng side was civilianised.
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