Which makes them all civilian!!! :):):):):)

Ladies and Gents,

i have said this before and I'll say it again. Calm down, its only a commercial

CHC will deliver a SAR service of that I am sure. They are putting in place new technology aircraft which is bound to have the odd issue. Which will get sorted eventually.

Lets face it, they are hardly likely to say " OK its too hard we give up!" They and the team they have recruited will unite and sort it.

As for Bristows, you are right, they are hardly likely to take their ball away when they are in competative dialogue with the SAR-H IPT. That just wouldn't be friendly!

Lets face it, a year from now we will wonder what all the fuss was about! I know this is arumour network but the odd moan from an individual is hardly cause to say the entire thing is collapsing!



No I dont work for CHC or Bristows.

Crabb - all military become civilians eventually.

332
 

You are obviously not a SAR driver, anyone with such an arrogant perspective as "putting their lives in MY HANDS" would soon be recognised and rapidly disposed of.

It may be named pprune, however, when discussing SAR, pilots are not generally the definitive oracle on the subject.

SAR is entirely a team effort and there is no room for conceipted Drivers who believe themselves to be above other members of the team. People that have that attitude in this environment tend to induce poor CRM, which in turn usually causes accidents.:ouch: :}

Good Luck to CHC

Nicely put Angel. (Have you been tango'ed recently)

Mistress

Obviously we seem to have hit a nerve here. My view is that you are not a SAR pilot and seem to have little idea of real crew co-operation. In SAR it goes way beyond two guys sitting up the front of the aircraft. If anyone on the crew is not happy with a situation he says so and it gets acted upon. My life on the wire is not in the hands of the pilot. It's in the hands of all the crew.

Wiretensioner
 

Ouch, are you implying that I have vanity issues:cool:

It is all natural, the climate in shetland is positively tropical!!:}

Angelonawire
 

Nice to see that you are still about and that time has not mellowed you.

"SAR driver[s] ... rapidly disposed of"

How well you encompass all that is best in multi-crew co-operation.

Yes, but Angelonawire is the man whose CRM skills are such that: -

he once said on this forum that which was then read by every pilot he flew with; :ugh:

and who after an incident couldn't sit down and discuss it as a crew but instead carried out a vindictive public attack on the Captain on PPRUNE, threatened anyone who disagreed with him before deleting all his posts! Which when you consider the first remark probably wasn't the Captains fault because he was just the unskilled monkey being manipulated by the winch op!

So it’s a bit rich for him to be criticising CRM when he clearly lacks it himself! :=

I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest of rear crew angst by merely stating that this is a pilot's rumour network and it is only natural that pilots look at any thread from their perspective.

I didn't start the name-calling that came from Wiretensioner and Flungdung. The remark about your life in my hands is perfectly true as I think it was angelonawire who had a dramatic incident due to pilot inputs, but I do not think of myself as the god in the front as those with chips on their shoulders seem to think. SAR is a whole crew evolution and any weakness in the composition of the crew can be disastrous.

I couldn't position the winchman without the accurate patter from the winchop and he couldn't position the winchman without accurate and precise flying from me. The winchman relies on his safety by trusting the 2 of us. The casualty’s life depends on the bravery of the winchman. It is a true crew operation. Which is why I am surprised at the remarks made by some rearcrew who seem to have issues that would have CRM consequences if allowed to come to light during SAROPs.

For info I may not be an active SAR pilot now but I did do 10yrs Seaking SAR (B CAT) with many fine rearcrew who didn't have the anti-pilot views that seem to be held by some on here.


332M

Return to sender
 

I shall take the bait on this, nicely regurgitated, your memory is nearly as good as my wife's!,

The entire lack of CRM was the catalyst for the incident as you describe.

And the reason for me airing my dirty laundry on prune was also a product of poor CRM, autocratic captains and company managers burying their heads in the sand.

I think this matter was discussed quite enough in the past and would be rather dis-tastefull to start bringing it to the forefront again, Hopefully CHC with some fresh new blood, new and up to date procedures, CRM skills and a distinct lack of cobwebs and odour of urine, may be a breath of fresh Air :eek:

SAR Unit Manning & Aircraft Utilisation
 

Dear All,
Just to clear up a few points.
1. All present Bristow/MCA Helo Units (excepting 12 hour only Portland) have 24 staff, comprising:-
8 x pilots
8 x crewmen
7 x engineers
1 x secretary
1 x labourer/odd job man
Cleaning is by contractor.
2. There are four SAR/LN450 S61s (one each base) plus two 'standard' S61s as spares. One spare is at Lee, the other is in Sumburgh. Because of maintenance requirements the spare aircraft are regularly on line with little diminution of the proffered service. Crews regularly train - yes, even over decks on pitch black nights - on the spare aircraft to maintain proficiency.

angelonawire
Reading your last, I assume that you are joining CHC. With your attitude you could cost CHC personnel, and if I were in your environment then you would be the last person that I would want to work for, or indeed to admit to know.
Hiller

SAROwl - do you mean to imply in your post that the Portland crews don't train because they don't have a spare? That's the way it reads.:)

Are your S61s a similar spec to the CHC SAR ones in Ireland? By that I mean that their SAR aircraft is SN501 fully autopilot equipped but that their spare is likely to be a non-autohover, non doppler aircraft (standard S61?).

If yours are of the same spec then you cannot say that there is 'little diminution of service' when transferring to the spare, especially for night over water work.

Here we go again?
 

Crab,

I have re-read Owl's post and see nothing that implies no training at Portland. (by implication, neither Portland or Stornaway can train regularly on a limsar A/C as they don't have one on site).

I agree with you that 'little diminution of service' might be overstating the case a bit, because otherwise there would be little point in fully equipped A/C.

However, if, as I suspect, this is an opening salvo in another round of MilSAR is better than CivSAR, oh no it's not, oh yes it is, could you save us all a lot of time and just cut-and-paste from one of the previous threads. Thanks.

You look at posts but don't READ them then?

Angelonawire
 

"a distinct lack of cobwebs and odour of urine, may be a breath of fresh Air"
It is so nice to see your obvious zeal to berate your former employer and colleagues once more. You really are a little bit bitter and twisted about something.
Perhaps it is time to let us all know just where your vast amount of SAR knowledge and experience comes from. Can you enlighten us please?
Achilles426

Actually Stornoway, Sumburgh and Lee all have standby aircraft. The only base that doesn't is Portland.

Poor old CRAB is trying once again to start an argument and who can blame him. He doesn't have long to slag off civvy SAR before the new aircraft and contractor start with new equipment, proceedures and full SAR standby aircraft - all of which were effectively chosen by the RAF. So apart from a radar that points behind him all his other arguments are lost!

Never mind.... I'm sure he'll think of something else! ;)

Tractor driver - sarowl wrote-
2. There are four SAR/LN450 S61s (one each base) plus two 'standard' S61s as spares. One spare is at Lee, the other is in Sumburgh. Because of maintenance requirements the spare aircraft are regularly on line with little diminution of the proffered service. Crews regularly train - yes, even over decks on pitch black nights - on the spare aircraft to maintain proficiency.
The last sentence says the crews train on the spare aircraft and the second says that the spares are at Lee and Sumburgh. The smiley after my question means I know what he is saying but that it can be read another way from that which he intended.
Sailor Vee - does a 'standard S61' have a doppler hovermeter, an autohover, both or none? I know what the CHC ones have but not the Bristows ones, that is why I asked the question - duh!
There is no need for another pi88ing contest - I know that as with any skill, those that practise most will be best at it and SAR is no different whether front or rearcrew. Whether this truism will be reflected in the new SAR contract is up to the beancounters.

Crab.
For crying out loud change the tune and read what the posts actually say.
There is a standby machine at Stornoway, Sumburgh and Lee. (Shared with Portland.) All this you well know from previous posts. The standby machines are not LN450 fitted. Training is carried out on the main machine, LN450 fitted, or if that is off line off line for maintenance, then training is carried out on the standby, none LN450, machine.
The only thing that will change when/if CHC take over is that all aircraft, S92 and AW139, (where are they?)will be to the same standard. At least that is what the MCA have been told.

3DCam -stop being precious and read what my post actually says - the smiley was there to indicate that I knew exactly what sarowl meant but that it could be read another way.

Equally, I know that the first standby aircraft at the MCA flights is autohover - my question was whether the spare had a doppler meter which would allow some semblance of night overwater hover or if it was the same as the CHC one which is like a big Wessex in terms of night capability. The reason for mentioning it was sarowls statement that the spare aircraft represented only a small diminution of capability which is not true for night over water work.

Crab

The UK Coastguard standby SAR cabs do not have doppler/autohover capability and only a single winch.

They have the older intercom and simplex AFCS.

There is no major restriction on capability. Night jobs and/or very bad weather ops are not really a problem provided there is some sort of reference when operating below 45kts.


I do think that both the main and standby cabs are looking a little tired these days

Cheers

Press

But not as tired and worn as the shagged out Sea Kings:cool:

Thanks press - that was what I was after, information without insults and abuse:)

Wiretensioner - if the junglies can have the Carson blade upgrade why not our SAR cabs - that and a decent avionics fit on the Mk3 might help eke their life out until 2017. The RCS does make grim reading some days and it's the same things that keep going wrong, aggravated by the number of spares that turn up U/S.

Crab.
"Precious"?? The only person to call me that is my dear old mum. And that was a long time ago!!!

Why would you want to eke out the life of your poor old airframes?? Surely some of them are vintage 1978/79/80ish?(The same as some of the S61's you keep going on about.) If you drag out their lives any longer then where will they work? Harmonisation should be completely up and running well before then! Or have you heard something we should all know about?

However.... I agree with you about Carson blades. If, as was suggested by more than one person who posts on here, they had been fitted to the S61 along with other weightsaving mods. and uprated engines and transmission, in the mid/late eighties (yes that long ago) then perhaps we would not be having all these roundabout discussions!!

U/S spares are not just a Military problem!

Carson
 

I think the Carson blades have a 30 knot (ish) start up limit which could be a problem especially when operating on the coasts where winds can often be higher than this. But dont quote me.

Well, I will quote you.

Where do you come up with this stuff? No source, no reference, no idea - but "I think"!

Have you ever seen a Carson blade, operated a Carson blade, read any of the certification paperwork or a FMS?

If we can't quote you, why bother posting this un-informed nonsense?:rolleyes:

3DCam - 2017 is the official out of service date for the mk3 and 3A Sea kings; even if the 2012 contract leads to full civilianisation, the RAF SAR flights won't be handed over immediately. The process is likely to take a couple of years from what I have been told and is unlikely to start until 2014 to 15 - hence the 2017 OSD.

I would like a new aircraft right now but that ain't gonna happen, shuddering along at 110 kts isn't the way to get to a job quickly.

Bristow/MCA Crewing/Aircraft
 

Crab,
I was trying to answer a couple of points with one answer. A previous Poster queried whether we trained at night on a limited capability SAR aircraft, the answer is yes. Although the spare is held at Sumburgh, when Stornoway (or Portland on the south coast) withdraw their aircraft for maintenance they still carry on with the standby aircraft.

Diminution of proffered service - because the MCA contract is maritime SAR a standard S61 can easily winch from most decks. Searches are hard work as everything is manually flown. Cliffs are OK as the landing/search lights are standard. Persons in the water and liferafts at night are inadvisable.

Aviators
I asked on my original post about Carl Taylor. It was rumoured that he left the MCA shortly after the interim SAR contract award, for employment with CHC,and apparently had a say in the contract award. This seems to be obviously incorrect as no answers are forthcoming. My apologies if I have offended anyone.
No matter what sphere of aviation you operate in, it does take teamwork. Just try and push back from the terminal without check-in staff, engineers, the tug driver. Not fogetting the refueller!!
H

Hiller.
You are correct with regards to C.T.! Yes. Hmmmmm..... indeed.

The spare CG S61's are not standard S61's. They do not have the LN400/450 auto hover system but they do have FLIR, additional search lights (they are not standard S61 lighting), additional navigation equipment etc. They're not great and need replacing like the Sea Kings but they're not standard S61’s.

Lets remember that each base will soon have two new identical full SAR S92's or AW139’s (with the exception of Portland which will have one AW139). This is all good news for SAR and should all happen in the next 12 months (allegedly) and this whole debate can then be put in the archives.

With regard to the last post with Portland having just one new AW139, has anybody thought of the pressure this is going to put on the pilots and engineers. With the S61( and not being a dinosaur) you knew after years of learning and experience what was acceptable to go and fly. This will not happen with a new aircraft, especially with no back up. Although other members who have had the opportunity to fly and maintain the new aircraft you certainly do not accept what they think, albeit in their best interest. After all this is a Rescue service and certainly a casualty who becomes a statistic is one that nobody wants. Just because is daylight only IMHO a second aircraft is required.
One last thing, can anybody tell me why Portland are only daylight? My thought is if they were not busy then they would not be there, but they are and must be a terrific resource for the MCA. Perhaps Carl Taylor with his inside knowledge could answer this, or was he one of them trying to close it down a few years ago.
H

Do you ever get the feeling that what is required is not going to happen. A government agency driven by pseudo business ideas led by commercial pressures?

No one is going to come out of this smelling of roses. Bristow must be p*ssing their pants at the goings on. But at the end of the day, Joe public in this country is so apathetic that they can't be bothered to vote, so do you think they care about your precious SAR helicopters? Ask someone from SE2 about SAR. Unless , little Johnny was lost on a lilo (highly unlikely as they would be in the Costas) off Dorset then I don't suppose they would care. They don't care about really important matters, so don't be so presumptuous that they care about you.

Everyone for themselves and dam the rest. Well done, carry on.

Hiller.
Portland is not a daylight only operation!
They are on call from 0900 till 2100, 365 days per year. The aircraft is the same standard as all the other M.C.A. units ie. all weather, fullycoupled, Flir equipped, dual hoist etc.etc. There is no spare aircraft on site, the spare machine at Lee On Solent is used when required. This sad state of affairs came about after the Portland spare aircraft was lost after an in flight engine fire and emergency landing at Poole several years ago while on a job! The M.C.A. would not pay for a replacement, hence, now only one!
The reasons for not being 24hr. are lost in the sands of time but basically it is down to the fact that the R.N. only provided 12hr. cover so the M.C.A. in their wisdom decided to carry on that way. Oh... and they would not fund another 24hr.unit. Money again!
I think that when Portland was under threat of closure, Carl Taylor was not in position with the M.C.A. so I doubt if he would have any idea about it, or anything else come to that! And yes Portland is busy, once in fact, in the not too distant past, the busiest S.A.R. unit in the country after Lossie.
The arrival of the 139 is awaited, and awaited, and awaited. Does anyone have any information at all about this machine?

According to Helidata AW139s due to enter service March and June 2008 for transition training...fully operational 3 months later...S-61 stand in meantime.

Heli1
Yes, that's what the glossy brochure and C.H.C. say but is there any hard news on the 139 and its development into an all weather SAR machine?
Fully coupled autohover, dual hoist etc.
Also where are the S92's? Is it true that they are still in the U.S.A. waiting for an export license?

Cyclic
You are dead right!!
H

If you are fed up with the bitching on here go to the SAR Harmanization thread in the military forum and see the standard of bitching on there. Well it's not much better because as always it seems to be the same old characters at it hammer and tongs, my willy is bigger than your willy. GROW UP!:cool:

Wiretensioner:

Fully agree with your post, well put. When a perfectly reasonable question starts a new thread but contains the three most priclkly letters in rotary wing aviation (S, A & R) you can guarantee the whole thing will invariably degenerate into the now time honoured pi$$ing contest.

Please guys, keep the SAR threads relevant and on track. It's not difficult; after all, the thread creepers all know who they are!

Look to Japan for AW139 SAR ops .....I think first are in service or at least delivered so should be well mature by the time MCA catches up.
Re S92 Helidata says first a/c now due in mid June...US State Dept hold up cause of sensitive para military equipment ......obviously frightened they will be hi-jacked by Osama's mates !!

I will answer part of my own question myself.
The first S92 will be on the boat to cross the pond next week! Export details are now sorted out.
I will now retreat into the undergrowth for fear of upsetting anyone for trying to find out hard information, which could have a bearing on where and how we live and work. In that order!