And if you did your PPL(H) before the 5 hours instrument appreciation was part of the syllabus, then you have to do 15 hours under the hood for the night rating. I was going to do it but could not be bothered with the 15 hours IF on an R22.

No - you need to do 10 hours of Instrument appreciation and 5 hours night flying. The 10 hours applies whether you did 5 hours as part of the PPL or not.

Why do you say bats and prats ?? I know of many extremely sensible, extremely qualified pilots who have regularly flown singles at night . Why dont i line them up for you one day and you can call them all "prats" !!!
Where do you draw the line with your fear of singles ? Would you fly across to France in one ?? Cross a reservoir in one ?? Funny thing is that statistics do not back you up . Unless you are hovering all day OGE or flying all day over water then twins are identical to singles re safety.
Now i duck !!!:ok:

I dunno; I thought that was quite an amusing expression to maybe highlight the extra hazards in flying at night?

Cheers

Whirls

stuart Knox will do it for you at Blackpool in 22, 44 or enstrom he flies out of Blackpool, Barton and Woodford although it may have to be Blackpool or Woodford cause Barton is not licensed at night.

Pm me if you want his number

An interesting attitude to the instrument appreciation - it might save your life and is there because disorientation and inadvertant IMC are real problems at night. I guess from your post 206 that you didn't actually go IMC on your training or you might have a different view.

So you'd really advocate a private pilot flying into IMC to see what it's really like? Personally, I beleive that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing: you either learn how to fly in cloud properly or you don't do it at all. I think the '10hours' could give some pilots (at the risk of being flamed, let's say...lottery winners and football players) the idea that they've 'learned to fly in cloud'.

For the avoidance of doubt, I spent hours under foggles (learning turns on the AH, maintaining height with VSI/altimeter: and cloud breaks), but in VMC with my instructor maintaining proper lookout. And the occaisional foray into cloud. And I learned that I never want to go back there deliberately.

IMHO, foggles, "welders masks" and even approved screens are significantly less disorientating (and less frightening) than the real in-cloud experience. :uhoh:

Real IMC is no fun with little experience. Also, unless you are in an a/c equipped for IMC, with an IR rated pilot, then you shouldn't even go there to ''see what it's like'!
Only my opinion as doing the IR course is pretty tough but to be out there doing IR training, under the screens, when you do suddenly go IMC, things do change somewhat even though you would think they shouldn't.

The night rating is only useful if you're going to use it. If you wish to do a night flight, get a mate already current to take you up. Saves time, effort, money.

:hmm:

night rating
 

Just finished my heli night rating @ heliflight / Staverton.

01452-714555

The most important difference between heli night/IMC and fixed wing night/IMC is the stability of the platform.

The helicopter's versatility is based in its instability and thus cloud flying (in a non-IFR aircraft) day or night IMHO is for the suicidal only.

Happy flying

SB;)

I disagree with the " a little bit of knowledge " bit re instrument flying. When we look at the stats re CFIT it makes me feel that MAYBE there should be a requirement for much more training. I have only done maybe 20 hrs of non simulated instrument flying and feel equally in no way qualified to go anywhere near it , in fact it as my greatest fear and i believe that fear is one of the reasons that i would end up a statistic if i went inadvertant imc. I am doing more instrument training NOT in order to venture there but solely to give myself the very best chance of staying cool and turning around safely. There is no reason why , other than legislation, you cannot fly imc in your single , if it is equiped, therefore no reason to panic if you do go inadvertant ....so long as you are up to speed and that means training. Dont say that everything is fine as it stands because the statistics show there are still too many pilots dying due to CFIT....just an idea .

NO i am not advocating pushing it in bad weather etc etc

Instrument appreciation et al
 

There are two sides to every arguement. If you take the view that if you are never taught it you won't want to try it..for those that think just because they have done instrument appreciation that they can take on an ILS with an R22 in total IMC. OR the view that the little time you take to "appreciate" the dangers of this problem, and use the instrument training to execute 180 turns and get out of "inadvertant IMC" then you have realised the problem.

It is not the training, it is the attitude of the pilot. If you have no IR then you should keep well clear of clouds, even this IMC rating in the UK is a pain, as it makes pilots think they can fly through cloud and be invinsible.

If more training was done in instilling into low time pilots that there is danger in them clouds in the form of say for example the "Robinson Safety Course" then pilots would be more aware of the dangers. Visits to the AAIB at Farnborough and the reading of accident reports should make the unwise pilot more wise to the problem. As they say; there are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many old and bold pilots.

I think there should be more effort to shock pilots into reality at an early stage, so that statistics don't happen, as too many happen anyhow.

Just my two penneths worth.

MD :ooh:

I agree with you MD900, "it's not the training, it is the attitude of the pilot". :ok:
I have read over the last few years how some senior examiners in the UK would like the 5 hrs instrument removed from the PPL course as it gives the pilot a "false sense of ability".
I know of one PPL friend who managed to go inadvertant IMC in an R22 solo, and luckily did exactly as taught to get back out, he will tell you himself, without that training he wouldn't be here today... :D
However you will always get the odd one that will risk it intentionally regardless of training, because of overconfidence and the "no one is gonna tell me I can't fly IMC " attitude, and we know what happens most of them...:uhoh:
BC.

206jock - I can't find anywhere in my post where I even hinted that a PPL should 'explore' IMC by himself. You were moaning about how much instrument appreciation you had to do and I was trying to point out that if you had done some of that in cloud with an appropriately qualified instructor, then you might understand why instrument flying skills are essential to every pilot - especially at night.

Thanks for all the replies on this, I am now not too sure if I will bother doing it as I suspect I might not use it and if you don't keep very sharp on instrument flying it might just make me over confident. I have flown into cloud once and its something I don't fancy doing again!

Recently had a 200 hr R44 pilot as a passenger on an IFR flight. B****r all viz from VToss to DH on the ILS. His words were "how the f*** did you do that? there is no way I could ever even attempt flying in that!" Before departure he had been going on about taking over if I couldn't cope, as soon as we went into cloud he had vertigo, the leans and total spatial disorientation. This guy has built up his 200 hours in a very short time and did his instrument appreciation quite recently. He had done all of it behind foggles, which as he said you can still cheat. The real thing shook him badly. He now understood why his instructor had said to him that flying into the white fluffy stuff would kill him and that the instructor would rip him limb from limb afterwards.

I'm all in favour of instrument appreciation being taught in the PPL syllabus, but make more of it. There are too many unnecessary accidents and too many broken people at the moment. I well remember my first lesson in IF on the 300. My instructor laughed his socks off when I did a full 360 turn without noticing.

This is one more example of the differences between the FAA and CAA systems. Night is an integral part of the training for a pilot, it is not model specific, and it is not separately checked.

I can add this to the list of things that are different, more expensive, and not proven to be worth the difference. That is good, because I had to finally remove the Morse Code line item, which was the previous favorite inanity!

Going back to the starting point.....
 

This clearly points out the self fulfilling prophecy of the CAA mindset......

Just as in one of those schools with the bobbing heads memorizing a certain book....completely ignoring the reality of modern life and improvement in helicopters and engines.

Is it darkness that kills or some other cause to be more concerned with such as inaverdent IMC? IIMC does not count engines but it does do a very efficient job of sorting out those that cannot fly instruments in IMC.

Nick Lappos

I agree, but isnt the FAA system such that you do 5 hrs dual and then 5 hours solo at night? Sounds like a great idea. If you havn't soiled your pants before you certainly would then. Certainly would instill discipline and respect for mother nature. :oh:

I guess the CAA is just a money grabbing machine, instead of making sure that pilots get decent training without it costing their lives.

rotorboater

Don't be lured by all this scare mongering, as i said in my previous post, it is down to attitude. If you think doing the night qual will make you a better pilot, by instilling in you more skills and the right respect for mother nature, then go ahead and do it. If you think you would only abuse the Instrument appreciation and "try and see" what it is like on your own, send your licence back to the CAA and get a new hobby. This is no place for statistics. :=

If you wanna find out what it is like before you try it (Night/ inadvertent IMC) find someone like verticalhold who is both qualified and willing to show you what it is all about before you part with your hard earned coin. Then make a choice.

Eitherway Stay safe and remember, keep it in the green :uhoh:

MD :ok:

Good post! For goodness sake, flying at night is not the same as flying in cloud. You still rely on the good old Mk1 eyeball to navigate and see. In fact, as an old lag told me, if you can see 10 miles during the day, you can see 20 miles at night.

Personally I beleive that we should be given just enough instrument appreciation to learn that you don't fly at night when there is even a danger of running into cloud - and that 10 hours is a CAA-imposed overkill. Tell me someone: how many lives have been saved as a direct result of the introduction (about 5 years ago) of the 10 hour instrument appreciation part of the night flying syllabus?? Or imaybe it's just to make the night rating more difficult to get, hence less attractive to the ordinary PPL pilot? Maybe I'm just a sceptic.

As a rule of thumb, whatever limits I might impose myself for flying during the day....I double them for night flying and I would never, ever rely on a night flight to get me home. There be dragons!!

RB, you should do it: flying at night is a rare and interesting privilege and it definitely hones your flying skills. If people want to get high and mighty on here about it, that's their loss.