Welcome to the confessional......
 

How many of us out there are lying or have had to lie in the job. Have you written up hours in your logbook to get a job? If so how many?, what job?
How often are the flight and duty hours corrupted? What about not logging hours on the machine. Are you able to stop the clock through and engineering mod or do you not have a clock?
We all know it is happening and now we can all discuss it in confidence and safety. Do what I have and get a new handle and let it all out. (Oprah eat your heart out...)
Here goes.....
My thousands of hours contain about 180 that the parker pen created. I didn't want to but the competition was and I needed the job. I still hate myself...
I have to lie constantly on the F and D forms. I often work in excess of 70hrs a week and sometimes 10 days in a week. Doing the tally of duty hours is the biggest fabrication of the month. It starts to become complicated.
I have flown machines without clocks so that makes it easy to not log maintenance hours. One piston operator had the clock wired into the strobe or hook, so by pulling the CB the clock stopped. Very hard for the authorities to discover.
Theres more to come.....

I have been fortunate in that I have never had to do that. But I must confess Father Rotor that I did nail a nurse in a Med-Evac Huey once.......

Sorry I had to eliminate the lies.......

[This message has been edited by B Sousa (edited 16 May 2001).]

It's a constant fight with management in companies below a certain level - been fired more than once for telling them to rearrange two words into a well-known phrase or saying!

It seems to relate to servicing these days, and the use of the fudge factor when replacing components. It's amazing how many strong tailwinds suddenly appear on long legs when if you really had that strong a wind in mountains you wouldn't be flying.

There are a lot of guys in Canada with amazing amounts of hours who can't produce a logbook.

Phil

Helibiggles: thanks for "coming out" (and erasing your tracks :))
I'm probably naive and certainly shocked to hear this sort of behaviour is going on!
I take it you are in the UK, eh? (not that it makes any difference of course).
You're right though it is so easy to fudge this sort of thing I suppose. How many employers check your academic credentials never mind your professional ones....

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Thermal runaway.

PACO
A lot of those Canadian and Alaskan pilots who never logged time are honest folks. They just never had a need for logbooks until the FEDS started moving North. Most were working for themselves or small companies that knew them.
Lets not get those Great Pilots mixed up with the Parker Pen ones of today. You can tell the difference in five minutes in the cockpit.

[This message has been edited by B Sousa (edited 16 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by B Sousa (edited 16 May 2001).]

You're absolutely right, and a quick phone call around the industry soon solves the problem, but I'm working for one of the Parker Pen brigade right now. Or rather, I'm not as of this morning! I'll leave you to read between the lines.

Phil

Be careful with the parker folks! A pilot for a well known U.K charter airline has been rumbled by the CAA and may face prosecution.

Apparantly you can go to the US for a while, probably taking in Disneyland, San Diego and Yellowstone Park, come back to the UK, claim you have lost your logbook with 2,000 or so hrs in it, and sign an afadavit to that effect. Bingo! Hours accredited. Why waste time with all that penwork?...

Its amazing how many guys go out on the tuna boats and return with a massive amount of time. As far as shonky maintenance goes, I think the boats have the gold medal. There are some real horror stories. Paco, its funny how those really strong tailwinds occur where I am as well. But it's so much easier to hide when forced to stop the clock and transponder and become the stealth copter....
I once knew an S76 driver who claims to have made it to the mile high club in the back of a 76 while single pilot. She was flexible but I suspect it was more difficult than twister in the 747's loo. Would've been a legendary tale if the autopilot had dropped out....

What pisses me off, is that I never wanted to be corrupted. My employer forces my hand by making me fly op's that cannot be logged. These op's often take the machine up to 30hrs over the service schedule. This is not a lot in a 100hrly but times that by the 10000hrs that some machines have clocked and figure the math yourself. This industry has us by the balls. You log the time - your book is out. You don't log the time - you become an accomplice in the lying. What majorly concerns me is the component wear and tear and the longterm risks of catastrophic problems. How many of us have heard of major failures to components only 100's of hours old?.
Where are the regulating authorities? Do none of these people have any real industry experience and are aware of the tricks and techniques used by operators to cheat? Its high time that some of the inspectors come from within the civil sector rather than the sanitary world of the military.

Helibiggles, you sure as hell have found a new lease of life since you threw off your old handle, eh?

I think you've generated a very good topic for discussion and if I might suggest, I'll give it its own thread too......follow me...

Just out of interest... what ops can't you log?

Phil

Nobody forces you do do anything. You have the option to say no and probably get fired.
Two things I have found in life that are free. Your Signature and your Word. As long as you dont abuse them they are golden throughout your life. Once gone they can never be redeemed.
Maybe start packing your bags would make you feel a bit better. Plenty of honest jobs out there.

[This message has been edited by B Sousa (edited 17 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by B Sousa (edited 17 May 2001).]

I'm as curious as Paco on this not logging.

I know we are only required by reg (in US) to log time that which is required for training to aquire a rating, etc. nothing else.

Can you elaborate for us?

(If I have you right, then by logging actual time you are showing that the aircraft has been flown past scheduled maintenance, etc ?)



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Marc

Operations you cannot log are those that have(without being absolutely specific...)an agreement between two companies. One company allows you to use its product in exchange for the use of your helo. Sort of like a barter. Except we fly the job and pretend that it never happened...
B Sousa - It is not always easy to maintain your integrity when people are relying on your sparce income. I tried and now I just need to sustain until something better arrives. If you have never been challenged with this compromise you should be careful with the preaching.
I am suprised that more ppruners have not replied to this topic. Perhaps there are some people not willing to dredge up the past. I don't blame you ...
Following closely 'thomas coupling'...

Helibiggles.
I have been there and am able to say that if my alternatives were flipping burgers in McDonalds, my answer would be "do you want fries with your Happy Meal??" I guess Im just a bit more fortunate as dinner on the table has never been a problem.
Your obviously troubled with it, therefore my suggestion to move on. Lots of jobs that pay more than flying. Dont get on the defensive because you think you have made a mistake and have confessed in the community of your peers. My compassion goes to those who have been faced with an integrity question and have faced it properly. We all live with our decisions and Im sure none of us has been 100% correct.

[This message has been edited by B Sousa (edited 19 May 2001).]

Believe me, I do sympathise - it took me a long time, but I took the trouble to get another trade so as not to be so dependent due to situations such as you describe very early on. It meant leaving flying for eight years, but I've just had the luxury of saying "take this job and shove it" for the third time. Nice, but then again, I've only ever had myself to consider.

My thoughts with not logging concern the guy down the road who gets a machine with the wrong hours and the wrong servicing. As long as that part is OK, I think that's where the line ought to be drawn and integrity come to the fore. I once did a corporate job where nobody was allowed to use the machine except the boss so I offered to take his wife shopping and put the hours on his trips, which were all inside the next servicing boundary. That, to me, is a reasonable compromise.

Talking of confessionals, has anybody *really* overtorqued anything? I managed 130 on a 206 before dropping a load. One of those quick downdraughts between mountains.

Phil

Paco
Overtorque is OK, if you write it up and maintenance checks it out. Its those folks who get away with it and the next guy buys the farm that are the problem.
Im curious, did you start to bleed RPM, is that why you pickled the load.. or did the numbers scare you, theses aircraft a really tough.

I had an overtorque in a Hughes 500 in PNG a few years ago which was my first in 4000 hours flying. I was mortified and flew back to base to inform the engineer. He seemed very surprised that I had admitted to an overtorque. He checked the machine out but told me not to say anything to the company as I would be fired. What kind of safety culture is that going to produce?

B Sousa

It was all of a sudden, really - as far as I remember (it was almost my first commercial trip, having left the army), I got caught in an air pocket between about three mountains and started going down very suddenly, so I pulled collective. Seeing the needle go shooting up, I dumped the load and managed to peak at 130.

Luckily, the guy who taught me about Jetrangers (ex-Bristow, years and years) briefed me on overtorquing, so I got it back to base (ten minute flight) and confessed. I had no problem with the management, they seemed pleased I mentioned it. It wasn't a prolonged overtorque at all.

On the other hand, there are customers in my neck of the woods who know very well you can pull a certain amount for a few seconds and question why you didn't use it to get a load off the ground.

Talking of this, one of my instructors in the army used to check out the Ugandan Police Force who used Scouts, which beep loudly and slowly when you overtorque. One pilot said, when questioned about this on takeoff, said that he though it was to tell you you were off the ground!

Phil

Paco
Beep for Takeoff, thats a good one and no surprise considering what part of the world.
I saw a few pictures of one country over there where the local witch doctor was giving a Mirage some Ju-Ju before the pilot flew it. Must have made it go faster on less fuel.
Transient limits for Torque are non-intentional and should be kept that way. Im in a situation right now where management salivates at dollar signs. So after Im fueled and its about 105 on the ramp and here come six huge tourists. I just smile, do a hover check and promptly tell the loader to remove two or three.. They have the option to fire me if they want, but Im not hanging it out for THEIR dollar.

I also cant type for beans

[This message has been edited by B Sousa (edited 25 May 2001).]

Yeah, I've been there - used to fly an IFR-equipped LongRanger in UK that took about 1.5 passengers when full of fuel, and no amount of telling the Boss would convince him that you couldn't take off with 6 pax at Battersea with all their Xmas shopping until you pulled 100% and didn't get anywhere.

Used to cause great amusement amongst the ground staff.

Phil

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CARs in Plain English?
You bet!
www.electrocution.com/aviation

I recall a couple of pilots where I worked who flight planned ifr logged the whole trip ifr even when it was cavok. Suddenly, these people had alot of ifr time logged and I was still doing the right thing, only logging in cloud or when not visual at night, these types of pilots are kidding themselves, follow the rules and only log what you should, a check flight can produce amazing results, competent honest pilots should feel very comfortable within themselves, beleive me, a pilot who claims experience he or she doesn't have can easily been found wanting during a check flight. I understand it is tempting, but resist the temptation and be honest with yourself. I have made many errors over the years, and not once when in the confessional with the boss have I ever been sacked/disciplined or demoted. In fact, they appreciate it. Put yourself in the boss's shoes and think, would you like your line pilots to cover up or come to you?

I know a lot of pilots who are trying to build time and who are tempted, but we all started with nothing and wanted hours and had to do our time. So long as you sleep well and are honest to yourself, resist the magic pen.

Not preaching, just my own opinion for the post

Amen paco.

Do the time guys! Resist the pen.
It's a long dreary road but we all must walk it.
Do it right & you won't come up lacking, what's the saying?....what goes around comes around!
I'm not trying to preach...but the term is 'Professional'!
Although alot of jobs require minimum experience, ability counts for alot! Any company with their own simulator will flight test you anyway...prove your worth there & hours become a whole lot less important.

Thinking about over-torques etc....
I remember talking to a PNG driver about 1995 (ish) when a MIL 8 lost a couple of blades heli-logging on the West coast of NZ. He is a trusted friend and stated that the particular machine had been excessively 'G' loaded by another pilot, while in PNG. It seemed well known that the guy was extra hard on the machines. Subsequently 2 very long time professional pilots lost their lives and a heap of kids lost their fathers. I wonder if an attitude change in that previous firm may have prevented those deaths.
Around here a pilot recently had a MGB 'partially collapse'(only way to decsribe it...) on a piston. It typical for these old machines to be pulled until it runs out of throttle or RPM starts to bleed off. Forget the guages and just make it fly. Employers will show you that the aircraft can sucessfully exceed the limits on a checkride. Nothing like leading from the top with good airmanship.
I personally avoid it like hell and prefer to attempt a lift to the max limit and then step back and reacess. If I have to pull the arse out of any machine then I am more or less saying 'Well Mr Bell, Sikorsky, Robinson, Hughes etc...suck on that - you were wrong! I know something that you and your legions of engineers/testpilots don't.' Everyone knows that pistons and turbines can cop a hammering and continue unfazed. Its easy to forget the blades and tranny as the above examples show.

Yes,
Its an engineering fact that the damage done to any component will show up later as a failure of some kind, if it happens in the air its a failure of human fortitude and the guts to be honest and report it. Always admit mistakes because we all make them, that way you and others learn from them too, and if you find that you can't work like that, get out of it.