LOOK MA, I'M FLYING A HELICOPTER !
 

When you took your first training flight did the instructor let you handle the controls? Which controls did he turn over to you? How many minutes into the flight did the instructor pass the control(s) over to you the student? Just doing some research.

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The Cat

I saw a movie on TV last night (well saw 10 minutes of it) called 'Nowhere to Hide'. The pilot handed the whole helicopter over to his wife after 5 minutes of flight.

[This message has been edited by Dave Jackson (edited 18 March 2001).]

Lu:

He let me have the cyclic after we had hover-taxied out a little bit and have a little go with the pedals. When we were up in the air it was mainly working on looking at the horizon and (trying) to get the correct attitude using the cyclic.

Then as a little bit of fun, he took me down to have a look at a confined area. Bloddy Scary!!!!!! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Hope it helps a bit.

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PilotEddy

I had all three from the very start, hour 0 my CFI "rode" them with me.

We had briefed control scenarios and for the most part if I felt I was losing the hover battle, I would call for control transfer on occasion before he would take it. sometimes he would let me wrestle with it for a moment longer, however we never got into an unsafe situation, as I never tried to make radical hard control movements.

For your research the true danger of a new student on the controls of any heli is that they will overcontrol, not knowing how sensitive the controls are, even fixed wingers transitioning.

(however a funny story, some fixed wingers make a mistake of raising or lowering the robbie cyclic grip to initiate a turn, a practice that they lose after trying it twice :) )

I had enough exposure to heli's before to appreciate the dangers involved in overcontrolling that giving me all three to start was not an issue. It did take me 2-3 hours to get my hovering down (in calm winds) and to be able to manage a basic hover in any direction in a good wind was reached after about 10- 12 hours (and is still ongoing, like anything else).


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Marc

[This message has been edited by RW-1 (edited 18 March 2001).]

My first flight.... My instructor didn't hand over any of the controls until we were about five minutes in to the flight (had to go to a specified training area) and then he let me have the cyclic first for a bit of attitude training, then the collective and finally the pedals.. in flight it's not that hard.. it's the Hovering thats the tricky part...

The best description I've ever heard for learning how to hover "it's like trying to stand on top of a basketball, that's sitting on top of a wet bar of soap, and trying to keep your balance"

He also did a demo auto .. let me see how long the machine could go with the low rotor horn on and did a cool confined.. had a blast.. was totally hooked.. not that I wasn't before but..

been reading your SFAR's Lu?

To: Imlanphere

Nothing to do with SFARs. I'll explain after I get more responses to the question.

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The Cat

I had all controls demonstrated and then given to me on my first lesson, then all 3 at the same time (with help on the duals of course!) Not that I moved them much apart from the cyclic!

I always get a trial student to use all 3 seperately after a 'follow through' demo in the hover. They all do very well if carefully briefed, women have the edge over the men generally. Most students can manage all three in the hover (for a short time) by the second lesson. Hovering in FULL control for a sustained period takes between 4- 6 hrs taken in 40 minute 'bites'.

My CFI here in NZ says "If they can hover, they can fly", and he's not far off the mark.

Yes, the teetering robbie cyclic confuses many even though you briefed it twice, the excitement makes that evaporate but it soon sinks in!

My memory is a bit foggy but it went something like this.

Demonstration of all three controls seperately. Practice for about 5 mins using each control on it's own. Then practice using two controls together I don't think we made it to practicing all three together in the first lesson. It wasn't very elegant proberably made worse by being a fixed wing pilot first (don't worry I'm over it now)!

Lu; you stated <Nothing to do with SFARs. I'll explain after I get more responses to the question.>

Seeing as you now tend to ask questions then throw it all back at us. I won't answer this until you tell us all why you want the information. I would advise all others to do the same.

:)

Good Morning Lu,
Gin clear skie,s with us here in the Uk at the mo, on my first training flight my Lady CFi fully briefed me on the ground what she was about to show me( in the air that is) at initial start and prep for t/o she was talking thru everything, into flight she demo'd l/h and r/h turns, t/rotor movements to put the ball in the center, and up/down attitude with the cyclic, then after that which had taken up about 10/15 mins, I was asked to hold the cyclic gently and feel what the R22 felt like as she released her grip on the controls , cyclic was the only control that I held until she felt that I understood how little movement was needed to move the craft a lot, then she explained more about the collective and with me following thru showed me the reponces felt in the a/c by lowering and raising the lever, this seems to have been a lot more gentle than some guys had with male CFi's
Nuff for now
Regards
Peter R-B

Lu

I think from memory my instructor treated my first lesson as a TIF. I got the controls one at a time once we were straight and level. Just the cyclic then just the collective. I had done about 40 hrs fixed wing at that stage so I remember the hover at 1500 ft really gave me the willies, as did the last couple of hundred feet of the auto on return to the field.

All three controls almost immediately at height, and as far as I remember I had very little difficulty with flying straight and level. I had about 150 fixed wing hours at the time, and had been recently flying an aircraft with very light, sensitive controls so the R22's didn't feel that strange. Hovering was something else of course, and what I'd really wanted to try - I managed with all three controls for about ten seconds...maybe I'm exaggerating that by a second or two! However, the slight edge I'd seemed to have at first over people who'd never flown anything seemed to disappear after a while - or maybe I'm just a slow learner. Anyone else who's flown both or taught people who have got any comments on this?

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

Whirlybird

My second time in a plane was my first lesson. A C152 aerobat. A quick look in the book tells me I went solo in the 152 in just under 8 hours and solo in an r22 in just under 30. I did however feel much more comfortable (and ready) in the 22.

I had all the three controls from the very first start.

I first had a briefing and during the walkaround the FI instructed me on what the controls did.

Then, after starting up the helo, it was battling for some control (most cyclic and pedals).

To: Imlanphere, Rotorbike and everyone else on this thread.

Maybe I should have given the reason for my starting this thread in my first post but I felt to do so might effect the answers.

About a week ago I had a long telephone conversation with a senior NTSB investigator who was looking into the four latest rotor separation / rotor incursion accidents on Robinson Helicopters. One happened in the United States, One in Ireland, one in Scandinavia and the fourth in the UK.

He indicated that a meeting was held with Robinson, The FAA and The NTSB in attendance. They revisited the NTSBs report PB96-917003 that was issued in 1996. This report dealt with 31 different rotor loss / rotor incursion accidents involving R22s and R44s. With the four similar accidents listed above it made a total of 35 such accidents. The overall effect of the meeting was diminished when they started to discuss loss of control accidents on 22 different helicopters instead of concentrating on the four accidents of last year. These accidents occurred after the restrictions were placed on the flight profiles of the R22s and the R44s and the implementation of the safety program mandated by the FAA.

Much of this discussion was previously covered in the NTSB report of 1996 and in that report it was proven that the Robinson design had the highest rate of occurrence of rotor involved accidents. However in discussing the Robinson in relation to the other 22 helicopters it was concluded that there was no more a problem with the Robinson design as compared to the other 22 helicopters. To me, this contreverted the findings of the original report.

I questioned the NTSB investigator about the four accidents occurring in the year 2000 and from what he told me the conversations that took place in that meeting the collective participants were trying hard not to find fault with the design. I questioned him specifically about the crash in Watsonville, California last year. He told me that it hinged upon who was flying the helicopter at the time of the crash. Shown in the next paragraph is an excerpt from a newspaper article attesting to the conflict of interest shown by both the FAA and the NTSB.

"History has shown the R-22 is not safe, and the fact is you have many high time pilots who have suffered the same scenario," Danko said. ( Danko is an Aviation accident attorney) "You can’t blame all these accidents on pilots."
Aptos pilot Kent Reinhard and his student Gary Sefton died Aug. 18 when the rotor blades tore through the cockpit of Reinhard’s copter in midair during an instructional flight near Watsonville.
Reinhard, 57, had flown airplanes and helicopters for decades. He earned his first pilot’s license in 1961, and had logged thousands of flight hours — including 1,000 hours in the R-22 — at the time of his death.
In May 1996, Reinhard completed the Robinson Helicopter safety course and received an "average" rating — the most common rating, according to Robinson, who considers Reinhard a "high time" pilot.
Reinhard, a corporate pilot for Dole Food Co., operated a flight school out of the Watsonville Airport and was an R-22 stunt pilot with Showcopters, a Salinas-based air show team.
Sefton, 46, of Hollister, was studying for his airplane pilot’s license when he changed his focus to helicopters a year ago. The fatal flight with Reinhard was his first lesson.

The accident occurred about fifteen minutes after lift off. In not knowing who was flying the NTSB (Read Robinson) can blame the pilot due to his inattentiveness to the students actions or, he (the pilot) placed the helicopter in a bad situation in demonstrating flight maneuvers. Either way, the pilot is blamed and the possibility of a design defect in the rotorhead is completely overlooked. That is why I started this thread by finding out what happens in the real world and not in the world of theory.



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The Cat

For Lu, Good evening from the UK still Gin clear sky's, for the benifit of us who fly amongst otherthing the R22/R44 just what is the "alledged problem" with the Robbie Rotor/heads is it a design flaw, or a build flaw, we all know these copters are nervous in flight but to have 4 accidents in 12 months all with low /high time drivers seems a little too much like a possible cover up, as our Prime Minister has said recently about one of his gang members " Once is a shame, Twice unlucky but Three times is unbelievable never mind the Fourth, so what do we do , Boycott Robinson Copters or what!
I await more educated responces to your thread,
REGARDS
PETER R-B

Vfrpilotpb if you want to read all about it I would suggest you go back to the 23rd Dec 2000 and open the Robinson topic with 241 postings.

We don't need to read it all again.

:)

In regards to the R22 accident in Scandinavia.
The local CAA doesn't mention bladeseperation at all, and allegedly the
R22 driver was a lowtime PPL flying
an illegal commercial photoflight.

Is there a problem with the R22/R44?
I don't think so. Whether you are a high time ATPL or low time PPL, If you fly the Robinson outside of it's normal flight envelope, then you will open yourself to possible problems. One question is are there any qualified witnesses who would testify and say they watched the helo flying along normally and then all of a sudden, break up?

If, when demonstrating an engine failure to a new student, what happens if the student is following on the controls and locks up or overpowers the instructors inputs?
With the low inertia rotor head it will be a bad end to the day.
What if the (student)pushes over abruptly?
What if carb icing occurs, the engine slows, then stops and the collective isn't dumped?
Let's not think about it.
Pity all Robbo's weren't fitted with black boxes to record control inputs / positions at the time of an accident. If you ask ten different witnesses what happened at the scene of an accident, there'll be ten different answers I bet.