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SAS
Relative to bird strike the 429 is superior to the S-76 (PHI) where a single bird left a two pilot aircraft as nothing more than a lawn dart. Maybe the cert of the 145 should be revisited apparently a number of 29 requirements were not met but the FAA and EASA let that get through. Kind of like the S 92 with its 29 "compliant" transmission. TC |
TC,
Nice to see you comparing the 429 to aircraft more than 30 years old and no doubt you would expect some improvement. The 145 is only a progression of an old design and is still a BK117C2 and the end of the day. The 427 was a duffer (2 engined 407 and not much else) and the 429 is not a progression of that aircraft as far as Type Certification goes. The TC was issued in 2009 and we are talking about a clean sheet of paper here. Looks like somebody has tried to play "wag the dog" and the dog ain't wagging. After having operated a couple of models with PW200 engine and first seeing the 429 up close and then learning it was under Part 27 the first impression was either it was made of unobtainium or someone had a rubber calculator. The other bit that I have difficulty understanding is that there is no room for growth of the aircraft under Part 27. Whats next - 8000 lbs? If they had started with it in Part 29 - no issue. :ugh: |
Bell seriously believed that they would 'get away with it'... they thought JAR 27 would would be remodelled around their slightly 'wrong' plans.
They did the same thing with the 427... the certification requirements stated among many other things that fuel would be in crashworthy tanks beneath the cabin so they built them into the bulkhead between the passenger cabin and the pilots....... the headrests were 4 US gallons or so.... and as we know the 427 bombed! They actually had EC and AW worried especially as they had a special deal with PWC on the new engines.... but overweight and unable to deliver the SPIFR [that they later delied was ever contemplated] etc it faded from view except for the gifts to African police .... In many ways McDonnell Douglas had the same cavalier attitude to the European certification authorities in the mid 1990s.... ['We are Americans, what we do must be right or made to conform to our rules'] and they had a close squeak with the 900 that became the 902 to conform. And now it looks like the FAA has sided with a [so far silent?] EASA. They are the certification authorities, and they have finally grown a spine, sat up and said 'These are the rules, follow them or pay the consequences.....' OR as 'Best of the West' seems to insist.... [see his post in January].... PANews...... Do you ever say anything nice about any helicopter or do you just bitch about them all. ....it seems that the FAA is doing as I tell them!!!!!!!!!!!! :p:O I will take that thought to my grave! |
Nice to see you comparing the 429 to aircraft more than 30 years old and no doubt you would expect some improvement. The 145 is only a progression of an old design and is still a BK117C2 and the end of the day. Besides, the EC-145 is substantially different from the original BK117. It's even truer with the EC-145 T2. I doubt that EASA is forcing Eurocopter to certify the latter under a new Type Certificate. Once in a while, every manufacturer gets a free pass... |
Bell ain't know for being innovative....sorry!
That is why they are getting their ass kicked in sales. Maybe that will change if they survive. |
Error 404 - Innovation not found
Do tell where all the "innovation" is coming from with the Europeans? All the manufacturers are rebaking designs from the 70s for obvious certification reasons. The sales delta has a lot less to do with innovation and more to do with $$$. |
Besides, the EC-145 is substantially different from the original BK117 It's even truer with the EC-145 T2 BK117-D2 |
Back in 2005 Bell had a mock-up on display at the CAMTS convention in Austin. We asked the Bell rep a ballpark figure for payload with a medical interior and 1.5 hrs of fuel and the confident reply was: "about 400lbs".
Also, to reply to Tcabot's: "Relative to bird strike the 429 is superior to the S-76 (PHI) where a single bird left a two pilot aircraft as nothing more than a lawn dart." The S-76 involved in the GOM tragedy had STC plastic windshields and the investigation determined that they were a factor in the accident. So your quote is out of context. |
Tcabot has an aversion to the truth and corroborative data.....so what is new about that?:rolleyes:
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The S-76 involved in the GOM tragedy had STC plastic windshields and the investigation determined that they were a factor in the accident. So your quote is out of context. Sikorsky Charged with Hiding Documents in S-76 Crash Suit | Aviation International News Sterbcow characterized the Sikorsky report as particularly damning. “The Sikorsky report concluded two major things: That the sill canopy structure of the helicopter likely failed before the windshield did, which is significant. The second thing [Sikorsky] concluded is that it takes very little force on the canopy sill, where this bird hit the chopper, to move the engine control levers out of fly far enough that both engines suddenly and simultaneously fail. This [helicopter] has a unique throttle quadrant design; there is not another one like it. Their experts came up with that.” Sterbcow said conclusions raised by his plaintiff’s experts are even more troubling. “Our experts agreed that the [windshield] sill failed before the windshield [did], but we ran more sophisticated and additional testing [on the throttle quadrant] and we are able to make this thing move out of fly with much less force than Sikorsky did.” This indicates that it is likely that even a smaller bird could do the same kind of damage to an S-76, according to Sterbcow. |
Squawk - 30 year old design.
Squawk - 30 year old design. Squawk - 30 year old design. Squawk - 30 year old design. Squawk - 30 year old design. Who knew? 20/20 Hindsight $5.00 - any takers? Get over it. It exists and isn't going away in a hurry. P.S. I've got a couple of flashing lights to sell to you. |
How does an Engineer anticipate every single failure mode possible?
If we took the latest greatest best designed and engineered aircraft built....could we let come up with new failure modes? Helicopters have a lot of plastic or glass in the front ends....that always makes them targets for failure post Bird Strikes. Do we improve the certification standards to withstand Condor impacts or do we limit them to Bald Eagles or Red Tailed Hawks or four pound frozen Chickens? Just what were the odds of that particular bird hitting that exact spot on that particular day, location, and instant? US Air had an Air Bus go into the Hudson a while back and that is a very big airplane with two very capable engines.....do we go to three or four engines on all airliners now? |
SAS, the clear point made was that the S76 is unique in that its throttle quadrant is unlike any other design and is especially vulnerable to birdstrike.
The post was a response to the reply indicating the plastic windshield installed by the operator was the issue, not the more vulnerable design of the ship relative to the 429 which does not have the same throttle configuration. We all know your opinion of Bell (and apparently Tcabot113), but his point regarding the specific birdstrike vulnerability of the S76 was valid and even substantiated by SAC engineers internally. Just what were the odds of that particular bird hitting that exact spot on that particular day, location, and instant? |
The PHI birdstrike was not the first one to move the throttles out of fly.
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If we took the latest greatest best designed and engineered aircraft built....could we let come up with new failure modes? Helicopters have a lot of plastic or glass in the front ends....that always makes them targets for failure post Bird Strikes. Do we improve the certification standards to withstand Condor impacts or do we limit them to Bald Eagles or Red Tailed Hawks or four pound frozen Chickens? Just what were the odds of that particular bird hitting that exact spot on that particular day, location, and instant? |
First EMS Bell 429 in Europe, Air Zermatt and first for all ECF operator
http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en_US/...easeID=1728908
That's interesting considering Air Zermatt is a Ec135 / As350 operator and be good to see how they operate in the Swiss Alps. I know I put a thread somewhere on this a few years back post Farnborough 2008 about Bond interest in the 429 and I recall a comment made by someone on that thread saying no small coincidence that said EMs demo at Farnborough was painted in red as with the Bell reps told me that Peter Bond was to be entertained by them. Cheers |
Chopper
The Swiss bought it because head to head it kicked their existing ships to the curb, and all at 7000 lb. Sas, Your still irrelevant. TC |
Air Zermatt 429
TC
Many thanks for that info as haven't had time to look into the background. I thought the first European EMS customer was Alfa in Czech as they had selected it to replace the Bell 427 or at least supplement their 427 and 206LT fleet. Then they picked the EC135. Off hand the weight issues with the 429 appeared so Air Methods only took delivery of 2 (for Des Moines) at Heli Expo 2010 rather than the 16 or so airframes? Apart from TC and FAA and maybe Indian DGAC approving for extra weight on the airframe I don't think EASA (please correct me on this ) had any notifications for weight insides regarding the 429. Considering the altitudes that Air Zermatt operate at could this set the precedent for more operators in Europe say OAMTC here in Austria or Knaus or Schider to potentially look at the 429? Also what's happening with CALSTAR order for the 429 is that still going ahead with this in spite of they just ordered the 135 ? Cheers |
Question of chopper2004 : "Also what's happening with CALSTAR order for the 429 is that still going ahead with this in spite of they just ordered the 135 ?"
Answer of CALSTAR (08/21/2012) : “We performed a very detailed review of our mission profile and our requirements so that we could begin the process of upgrading and standardizing our fleet,” explained Lynn Malmstrom, President and CEO of CALSTAR. “Once we evaluated all the aircraft, the EC135 was the best suited for our current and future mission needs.” (8 EC135 in order). . |
Bell seriously believed that they would 'get away with it'... they thought JAR 27 would would be remodelled around their slightly 'wrong' plans. |
Interesting point of view so why the American FAA said no ?
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Interesting point of view so why the American FAA said no ? |
Too much association with EASA or perhaps pressure from the current administration to fall into line with other international regulators? It is hard to say Again, interesting point of view. So about the R66 for exemple, why the FAA said yes and the TCCA and EASA said no (until now) ? . |
Interesting comments.
As the 429 was "designed" for a higher weight and therefore should have more power/performance margin available at the "lower" weight it probably does perform well at altitude. The saving grace is that in Switzerland you probably can't fly more than 10 minutes away from a Jet fuel bowser. Helicopters in Switzerland fly up and down not along. ;) |
I think Alfa Helicopters in Czech, went with the 135 at the time due to cooperation with Delta System Air (135 fleet) and the delay with the 429. They originally had an order for 4 427i's, which then became the 429. They now have 2 135's so I guess there is no reason to go to a new type.
The 427 has been quite sucessfull for them in the EMS role, and they were the first operator in the world to use it for this, if not the only, as far as I know? |
So the FAA said no because of their links with the EASA (and others dark powers) and the TCCA said yes because they don't have these links. |
completely disagree with you comment. the 429 was completely redesigned from the ground up. One of the most technologically advanced ships out there... :=
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One of the most technologically advanced ships out there Where are the "advanced" bits again? |
Bell 429 Hoist Operations
Anyone out there had any experience of conducting hoisting ops with the 429? Specifically, carrying out the hoist cable conditioning procedure using the 600lb test weight?
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You could try Priority 1 Air Rescue.
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What are you going to hoist, a chicken? I believe that is the most you can carry with enough fuel to fly and someone to operate the hoist.
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427/429 differences
Does anybody know where to find a simplified list of the differences between the 427 and the 429.
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I cannot see that you will be able to get such a list supplied the two airframes are completely different.
The 427 was built along the same lines as the traditional 206/407 airframes merged with the 206LT twin where the 429 was a completely new design concept. |
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-E...Weimeng%29.jpg
Bell 429 GlobalRanger B-7788 (cn 57044) belonging to Reignwood Star Aviation as seen in Beijing on 22nd September 2012 (Photo: Weimeng) A great shame that Bell lost-out on the original 'sleigh-style' undercarriage for this model as they were a nice touch to this aircraft. |
Bel 429 skid Trial!
Saw a article about it seem they finally win the skid trial in europe side!
Sorry can't remerber where i read it will be try to find the info Guy |
Guy: HeliHub carried this article which I am sure is the one you are referring to but, unless I am mistaken, this only allows Bell to continue using the type of undercarriage you see fitted to Reignwood's 429 above.
My understanding is that Eurocopter won a suit against Bell resulting in the 'sleigh-style' gear being removed from all 429's. However, EC went on to state that the replacement gear (in the photo above) still represented an infringement of their design and which claim I believe is the one which has just been thrown out. I am skeptical as to whether EC actually conceived the 'sleigh-style' undercarriage as there were several drawings of similar design by other manufacturers which considerably pre-date the 'blueprints' for the Colibri but .. as we know, this is not about who first conceptualised the style .. but who first had it patented! |
Wasn't the owner of this the first to use them?
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...uHhxQY_G0AURoQ |
429 IGW
The Civil Aviation Administration of China approves gross weight increase for Bell 429 | Vertical - Helicopter News
Brazil, India and now China... just missing Russia from the BRIC countries. |
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