TC the Joker
 

98% Serviceability, HA HA HA, thats the best one i've heard in a long time.
Obviously everyone is quite happy with all the problems with the Fadec and the Aris pot failures.

You've fallen in the trap of believing the marketing mens stats again Tommy.

Next you'll be nominating Macs for a Quality of Service award !

No one plans to crash but if the worst should happen look at recent police history before choosing.
A. 109, stayed intact, everyone walked away, no injuries.
B. 135, Disintegrated, serious injuries, (sadly)
I know what i'd rather be in. :ok:

Hmm 109 everyone walked away , are we talking of an autorotation here . If i recall the accident report on the EC135 in Scotland said that the accident would have been fatal in any other type of helicopter .

I quote from report 8/2003

Given the severity of the impact and the amount of damage to the helicopter, it was surprising that the injuries to the occupants were not more severe. The fact that they were not illustrates the effectiveness of the latest, more stringent crashworthiness requirements contained in JAR 27 in improving the survivability of occupants of light helicopters in a severe impact.

and later
Despite being severely damaged in the impact, the structure of the helicopter had offered the occupants considerable protection from injury and it was clear that the more stringent crashworthiness design requirements of JAR 27 had therefore made a significant contribution to the crew's survival, in what might otherwise have been a fatal accident.

Can you provide link to a equivalant A109 accident that people survived ?.

I think I can claim to be a fan of JAR/FAR 27 and therefore this link might just have some bearing on this thread....

http://www.nps.gov/grca/media/16oct03.htm

Early days I know, but this is just one of many instances that 27 has proved to be a lifesaver....

LOTS of photos. Mind you it busts the myth about Notars never having loss of tail rotor authority!

When JoBurg gets around to nominating his 109E crash to illustrate the crashworthiness of that type, he has plenty of choice too ........................... :eek: :E

"Mind you it busts the myth about Notars never having loss of tail rotor authority!"

I didn't know there was such a myth, it must be one of those urban ones...

Or lost in the Myths of time:p

Airbags! Air bags for helicopters inc.

Hereby copyrighted. Big airbag system. Just before you hopelessly hit the dirt, you press a big orange button ( Copyright on Big Orange recognised) Around 50 airbags should do it, methinks, all powered by compressed nitrogen,so it will blow out the fire. Small enough not to put too much of a weight penalty, but blimey, when its all going wrong, very welcome

This idea is now for sale for £ 2 million. Please PM me if you work for a major Helo builder or are a venture capitalist.

Definitely of interest to the Police where H&S has officially gone mad.

Must say, I never thought I'd see a " My chopper crashes better than your chopper" thread.

Fadec never grounded an EC135, we manage it in the air. And 2: ARIS pots keep on failing, we keep on using the spares, both of these are in the stats quoted.

Now c'mon Jo 90 show me yours:eek:

It hurts doesn't it, deep down, beyond this crusty front of yours ...to have to accept that perhaps, just perhaps.....................you really are the BLACK sheep of the family.

Nobody wants yesterdays model anymore...there's too much of a revolution going on in new generation helicopters.

Oh well, you pays your money...you takes your chance sunshine.

I never said I believed the myth about tail rotor authority!

The 900 comes from the same factory [design team] as the Hughes 269/300A .... early models always had trouble with t/r authority .... so they designed the 269/300C and that went a long way to solving that problem.... and we still have the Schweizer S300 to prove the worth of their work.

I can only guess the same team got sort of nostalgic and came up with Notar!

;)

O.K. PA News I'll take the bait. You're right, it is early days yet. How does a Notar have loss of tail rotor authority?? It looks like a pretty crashworthy aircraft to me.
Its a nice change to see a helicopter crash at the Grand Canyon and NOT burst into flames.

Ah, he lives!

I thought you had gone away and changed your name to Joberg with a new type to champion!

Seriously though the NPS crash showed exactly what I was saying relating to crashworthiness - and much of the airframe came out of the dink pretty well. Though before you claim that difference between that and the Scottish EC135 means something I believe that the angles and speeds were undoubtedly different! But both crews came out alive thanks to JAR27.

According to the NTSB preliminary report on the NPS prang something [perhaps a control rod to something that provides the 'puff' to the tail] 'went' and the pilot lost control. On that basis alone [and as we all know it proves nothing at this stage of any investigation] it appears that he lost tail rotor authority - you know the tail was not doing what he, the pilot, wanted it to do!

And using the term Generically - before you get too clever...!!!

When manouevring I think it is fair to say that any unexpected loss in tail authority [be it a conventional t/r delaminating, a failing notar fan or the directional control dustbin parting company, or even a fenestron getting all mixed up] will leave the pilot stuck ........ without the tail rotor authority the pilot might reasonably expect ..... quite predictable no matter how rare.

Of course you can always blame it on the pilot .......

I guess if Hollywood had anything to do with it the whole thing would have gone up in a napalm fireball.... they have not read JAR27 there!

Noise!
 

Although only a mere 22 driver and inexperienced in police aviation matters, I do remember reading sometime ago about a big increase in the level of noise complaints increasing when the 109 was 1st introduced to police work in Wales as a replacement for the previous type.

The noise signture a particular machine makes does must surely be a factor used when an ASU makes a choice on a particular machine.

Other possible choices are also absent from UK and other european ASU's are machines such as the bell 230/430 (as far as I'm aware) with its noise signature also a possible factor.

New A109 model?
 

Reports from pilots attending the factory to pick up their shiny new Powers, there appears to be a "stretched" Agusta A109 undergoing trials.

About a 2ft fuselage stretch in the cabin area, totally new main rotor head & blades, new (about time) tail rotor system, and uprated engines.

Now, if they could only give it some real disposable payload to go with the looks and the speed, it may finally meet the promises ;)

Rumoured to be due for the market when 109E sales tail off.

"S"
Talk of an "EC" type rear end as well to address the T/R problems, which are ongoing. Look at your T/R Blades EVERY post, preflight and turnaround.

Flew an Elite yesterday and also see the 139 on occasions.

Should know more as I live only 15 minutes from Vergiate, but there are distractions and the spy network is busy!

There are new composite tail rotor blades in the pipeline to be a retro fit for 109/119. When? Don't know.

There has also been spotted a skidded Power or maybe it was a twin 119.

There has also been spotted a skidded Power or maybe it was a twin 119.
 

A picture of the skid equipped 109E was in a trade mag that I saw today, along with an article relating to a military purchase in SE Asia of 109E's. Strange look, and probably able to give a few much needed kilo's extra payload ;)

Head Turner - the "twin 119" has been in production for years. It's called the 109.....

pphelli yes I do off course know that there is a 109 with 2 engines and wheels. I also know that the fuselage of the 119 is different to that of the 109. A 2 engined 119 is quite different to the 109.

Now to follow this thread further it would appear from comments about the selection of the 109 by a certain Welsh Police Force that the 109 is not at all liked for the many reasons stated. Noisy, expensive, not too easy to see out of, CG concerns etc.

I have done police work in the past with the AS355 models and therefore cannot comment on how much better the latest EC135/MD902/A109E models are.

From what I hear, none seem to be ideal, suffering power requirements below expected criterior/excess weight and poor endurance.

Until a dedicated machine is built (which will be never) I think that each police authority can, for their own reasons, choose the one they prefer. Ideal or otherwise.

It would be interesting to see a world wide count of Police helicopters by type.

Bit more information gleaned from Italy..

The "109S" (S=Stretched) involves a stretch of no more than 30cm, I assume that is 30cm on the Elite dimensions and not the standard Power. Also, the flight testing started in 2001 !!!

The skidded Power idea was dropped over a year ago with flight testing not completed. It was known as the CFA project - presume these were the Italian initials for "fixed landing gear". The aircraft involved is MSN 11055 reg I-PCFA

It would be interesting to see a world wide count of Police helicopters by type.


Such lists exist but they do not tell all the story. They can suggest that most countries have tried all the manufacturing options, little more.

In its basic form you would probably come up with a number crunch that might suggest that perhaps the Bell OH58 or the OH6 appeared more numerous in police services worldwide but that might hide the truth.

I know of a number of 'police' air support units that have as many as a dozen aircraft on their books ... many are just numerical wrecks that will never fly again.

I am also aware that some of those same units fly in daylight only [because they cannot sustain the purchase of night role equipment] and others that fly at night only.

Then there are some of those multi-aircraft units that have just two pilot/mechanics to operate the whole lot. The total number of hours operated by such a unit might reach 1,000 pa but some of these airframes for just a handfull of hours towards that fleet total under 1,000 pa.

I know that this is a very selective example, but how can you sensibly compare such a set up with a UK police air unit that flies 1100 hours on a single high quality modern airframe?

It is the old story '.... how long is your piece of string... '

It will be at best misleading.

Perhaps the nearest we might get is to try and equate flight hours per square mile? One single state police aircraft in the State of Oregon does not match the numbers of State Police in Massachusetts.

Flight and Forecast have both reported on the A109S over the past year:

- 440 lb increase in MTOW
- P&WC PW207 donks
- Composite, scimitar-shaped TR blades
- Possible roll-out at HAI 2004


Cheers,
T/shaft