What happened to hard work?
 

Hello fellow PPRuNes

I have been reading Rotorheads for a few
years now and thoughtly enjoy the thread.
I like a drink and have a little bit of a temper :E
so I have resited posting untill now.

I was reading this months issue of Australasia Aviation
Trader when I saw this ad.

$10,000 REWARD
COMMERCIAL HELICOPTER PILOT
REQUIRES WORK FLYING
Willing to pay $10,000 for flying work
Ratings INCLUDE 200TT
R22/R44/NIGHT/SLING
33 YEAR OLD MALE
MECHANICAL FITTER/WELDER
MATURE,HONEST,WANTING TO WORK
DRIVING LINCENCES LR/MR/HR/HC/60 TON CRANE

I know how hard it is to get a start,
I know how it feels to spend cubic dollars to
get a licnence and then join the
ranks of the unemployed,
but surely there is a right and wrong way
to get that first job.

My old man told me that,
if I worked hard and keeped my mouth shut
I would eventurly get to where I wanted to go.
Am old fashioned? am I out of touch on how things
are done?
Would it not be better to spend the $10,000
on going round and meeting the operators
or taking some time off to work in a hanger
to see how things work?

I would like to hear what the bosses and the workers
think on the subject.

Cheers Mogg :E :cool: :E

As a new pilot (still unemployed) I wonder if he has had any success with this strategy. I could not and would not be prepared to do this myself, however I did look into buying extra hours to get myself a mustering endorsement but I decided against this route.

In my short time actively looking for work I have seen others on the dole and working in the hanger or just hanging around in order to get their foot in the door. IS working for free any different, again an option not open to me due to having to look after myself and meet payments etc.

Anyway I'm not really sure what my point is but in my short time it seems to me that lots of wannabe's are already doing this by working for free or paying the operator to let them fly for them and If i was an aircraft owner I would be happy to take their money.

It will be very interesting to hear the opinions of any employers that might use this forum.

Oh well time to catch a horse and go chase some MOO MOO'S

PS Anyone looking for a rookie pilot? Will not work for free!!!
Cheers

Mr Mullet

Mate I know working in a hanger
for free is a bit of a grey area
but some times it the best way to show
a future employer that you are not
complete idiot, before they trust you with
his aircraft and peoples lives,
Plus it is a good way to work out
if they are worth working for.

My point is that this bloke is not working for free
he want to pay a large sum of money to get a start.
What happens if the boss take his money and sacks him
one week later? and what about the next new guy
who walks though the door looking for work
does he have to pay $10,000 too?

All the best in finding that job mate
the road is hard but well worth it

Cheers Mogg :E :cool: :E

As a new CPL(H) I realise how difficult it is to find work or even a foot in the door type of job. So what is the answer? Spend more money on ratings endorsements etc and then eventually try to instruct although I am not interested in instructing.

I would probably spend in excess of $10,000 doing this. So why not?

Although I would question the type of person who would respond/reply to this type of advert and employ this person. With the lack of a contractual agreement this could all end in tears. I do not believe a reputable business would except this. If operators feel strongly oposed to this type of idea this person could risk ruining his/her name.

Saying all that I hope it works and would like to hear the outcome.


Hughey

P.S In NZ and need a job!

It is bad enough that people take a flying job for free without actually paying an operator to hire you.

The $10k would be better used to support yourself through the legitimate routes to a job, rather than bribing someone to take you on.



http://www.aviationtrader.com.au/cgi...ad=04mar40.pdf[/URL]

Kelly,

There are better ways to find work, as Mogg said, its mainly about hard work. You will get a very bad name in a small industry with stunts like this.

Hughey

If you spend $10,000 on endorsment/rating
at least you have something to show for your
money. I agree that no reputable company
would have a baaaar ;) of this idea but
it is not a perfect world.

From what I hear of Nuw Zealand at presant
is there is a lot guys that have taken out
stundent loans and are looking for work.
Check out the Jobs in Oz thread.
You might like to try working holiday in Oz
and see what happening here.

Best of luck

Cheers Mogg :E :cool: :E

Mogg

True about the students. I have recently learned that ca 60 CPL(H) students a year are funded through student loans here in NZ.

The market is flooded with new CPL's in massive debt. In an already over saturated workplace this can only lead to disaster.

I agree that $10,000 can buy endorsements etc. Ethically this would be the right way. But $10,000 might buy this guy a job and 100's of hours or it could all end in disaster. I think this situation is of interest to all new cpl's and the outcome will give us a true taste of what we are up against.

As for a working holiday in Australia I have already done it. I would love to come back to Australia and work in the bush but Mr John Howard says I don't have enough points. Hey! I might offer $10,000 for sponsorship!!!!

Hughey

paying to work
 

As a former new Cpl(H) albeit a few years ago now I know how hard it can be getting your first break into commercial flying.
I think that you should all take a hard look at the long term problems that will arise in an already underpaid industry if as suggested, you work for free or pay somebody to give you a job,( if you can call it a job when you are paying for it ).
If for instance a operator is using a pilot that has payed for the privledge of working for them, he then has a unfair advantage when bidding for work over and above another that is paying a fair wage to his pilots,you might not be worried about this now as the new pilot getting the hours but think of the future, it might be another story if you are expecting to make money out of your flying one day, which I can only assume is the plan.
There are no easy answers for getting the first job,but please don't stuff it up for the rest of us, you will be in this position one day and I guarantee you will feel the same way.
As for the student loan cpl's in NZ, I cannot see how they will be able to stay in the industry with the $100,000+ they owe to the government,unless wages in NZ have gone up a lot since I left.Anyway good luck.

I think its the duty of every commercial pilot, student pilot and wannabe in the industry to find out who this guy is and black mark him.
Its tuff finding work out there as a newbie, if anybody knows that I do.
But I will never under sell myself after working so hard and sacrificing so much to get the ratings, not forgetting all the work put in the years before to earn the money to!

Hopefully any employer will see this fella as the Spineless !!!! that he appears to be, and shouldn't be trusted with a helicopter.

In what other Industry would you hear that type of carryon?
Its a Blatent disregard for everyother pilots livelyhood, wonder how life would be for him with the people he hopes to be flying alongside, and how he would feel a couple of years down the line if he lost his job because some rich !!!! wanted to get up everymorning to pay and go to work.

His career as a pilot may be over, before it even started for such stupidity

Not rising to the bait charlie,
I still am a very low hour relative newbie constantly hunting and harassing for work, but I would sooner go back to digging ditches then stoop to that.

It is a strange industry with massive flaws in several areas most of which us as individuals can do nothing about, however we can do something to stop this sort of carry on.

Hello Charlie

Mate I agree that black balling
the bloke is a bit harsh, may be someone
should take him aside and tell him some
other ways of getting a job.

As far as insurance for newbies,
this to is a bit unclear, most people
will tell you that insurance will not touch any pilot
with under X amount of hours but this is not
always the case. My first job is flying tourist
in 206's. With 120 hours.
The boss says that the permiums
do not increase but you pay more on the
excess if some does go wrong.
( I am not sure if this is ture )
Hmmm may be this guy should say
to the next company he see's
that he will cover the excess
(but that is a whole new can of worms)
:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

If you want to do the hanger rat thing
then look for a place that does its own
maintance and lets you cross hire their
machines for joy flights, but Charlie your
right you still will be sweeping the floors
(I always knew that I would clean up in
this game)
:D :D :uhoh:

All the best Mogg :E :cool: :E

Most of you will by now know me by my expolts and fall outs in these forums before but I have to say I am a new CPL with multi engine IR and FI(R) and still looking for work But SFH 1970 has a point Charlie has a point also. Trying to get the first job is not just a mare it is almost bloody imposable my encounters to date as follows.

I have sent my CV out to probally 40 operators and can count on one hand the responce that I have got I have found some atitudes on the telephone. how many hours. answer 360 O we require 2000 and then they slame the phone down, however the latest one after the insurance issue, I have encountered is, have you been base and line checked, answer well no as I have not had a job yet. well that would be to expence at the moment when we can get in other freelance pilots to cover.

I think the only answer is to keep plugging away and dont give up. but offering money No I think it would be better spent either increasing hours or adding ratings and ride out the temptation to (BUY) your way in so to speak

My hope and belief is that operators will see that I have spent wisely on the right quilifications and will possably take me under there wing and as SHF saysnot only does it under mine what the current line pilots are doing even though I have no job at present it undermines what I have spent to try to get to the right Job. if somebody is willing to do it for free or pay for the privalage.

my stratigy is to try to offer some freelance work bit here bit there if I can get it but i would hope to now be paid for this.

I would (HOPE)
Finally i wish there where morew like John Eacott here in the UK it is a shame he is so far away
regard to John he is a man with the right idea

Bravo 99

After reading your post regarding time, effort and knock backs it does make it obvious why tactics like this are applied.

Although you condemn the action it may be anther way of buying yourself into a trainee position. Hypothetically if this guy gets 100's if not 1000's of hours buy adopting this approach and you and I are still plugging away the moral high ground is no substitute.

Getting the first job you must be competitive and have something to offer and like it or not $10K is an offer and it may just work. Unorthodox and underhand tactics maybe, but maybe a future.

We all relate being in the same position but that solidatary is soon broken when job offers land on the table.

I personally feel that this guy may have to be extremely careful due to lack of contract etc. There also must be a law against this type of caper e.g equal oportunities.

Hypothetically if you were offered a job with a guarantee of 400+ flying hours on a 1 year contract for $AUD10K/£4K, would you take it? Of course you would. You will even get a wage! 500 hundred hours for AUD$10K/£4K you would have to be mad not to.

Hughey

I would not disagree with what you say Huagley but it does not seem the right way to go about it as charlie says the industry is not going to change and for what bit i have seen in the last 18 months i think he is right. so the only way forward looking at it is by any means It just dos not seem the right way to go to me but as you say if he gets 500+ hours and so on luck lad

Just to give you guys some encouragement. I got my licence in late 98 and sold everything in early 99 to travel around the country looking for a job as I was told to do.

The reaction walking into companies with no hours was very disheartening. They had you picked and were shaking their heads before you even started to speak.

I decided to keep going till I ran out of money which I did, in the top end. I ended up driving a tractor on a farm to get some money together to keep going. As luck would have it the farmer was happy with my work and the careful way I treated his equipment so he called his friend the chief pilot at the local helicopter company, who up to that point weren't at all interested and had thrown out my resume , and put in a good word for me. I got an interview(about 5 minutes) and was offered a job on the spot.

So it can happen and the thing I learnt is that it pays to maintain a proffesional attitude no matter where you work as you just don't know where it could lead.

I always worked on the idea that I'd give it two years and see what happens.

Thankfully all the hard work paid off.

I don't understand how people put there lives and in some cases familys through all the bull!!!! year after year for the sake of helicopters.

Don't get me wrong I love choppers and flying but to a point, it still !!!!s me the operators who get away with treating pilots be they high or low time the way they do.

If only the ATO new what goes on!!!!!

I am trying not to be over (what is the word) you can guess.
I am careful becouse of past experiances on this forum but I believe in being professional

I have tried to get to the point of what is required in this industry only to get knocks,
I have walked into flying schools just after finishing my IR from PAS in a full flying kit full alpha 200 at the ready full brief of my goal only to be riduculed at what I am trying to do. to the point of my flying helmet being (sabotaged is to strong)( F***** about with ) is a better word and my gear being messed with

as I have in my statements in earliar threads tried to explain I Want to be professional but when you look at my CV then you look at where I have tried for a job I would love to hold down a job as do the guys like the ones I have flown with.

but I have seen at my level of inexperiance these guys are not up to what the requirements of what I am trained to do and bend the rules (often and seriously bend them) . if they offer me a job do I really what to work for some one who is trying hard to KILL me for a buck I find this concept hard to take in I have asked this Q to My ex CFI who has left this company in Q. his comments are well why do you think i left

I want to fly and want to work in this good industry but to what lengths am I prepered to go if this guy will offer 10K in any money to get the job what level of NO will it be before he stops taking risks I think this goes further than just give me a job

sorry Guys I am not trying to put him down but you need a level he is way below that level before he/we start

I may be wrong

please no sluaghtering I am still recovering from 2 engines out in the last thread.

Bravo 99 AJB

The way I see it,
If the guy has no regard, respect or loyalty to his fellow aviator by trying to buy them out of a job, well what regard or loyalty would he show to an employer.

Thats just my frame of mind.

Bravo 99, Its good to see you back, it shows good character, would have been to easy to come back under a different pseudoname, fair play and respect to you.

With $10,000 he is more then able to put a couple of big mac meals on the table for his family.

It is a horrible sad fact that the person with the most money, who is able to pay for the most ratings is the one who will most likely get the job, but thats the nature of the beast.
If you can't afford to do it, don't do it, there are plenty of other jobs out there.
When you start stooping to that level, expect retributions further on in your career, if you ever have a career after standing on so many peoples toes.
I would like to drive Formula 1 cars around for a living, but hey, thems the breaks!

You'll need a lot more than $10,000 to get a start in F1,
those guys pay up to a million for a drive.

That happens regularly.

Maybe we should black ball th F1 series.

:{

You reckon they never swept the garage or lifted a spanner, i think not.

:ouch:

who do you think should sweep the floor, the boss???

so stay unemployed!!!

:ok: