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Grav,
The number of true VRS accidents in helicopters are minuscule, relative to the way pilots find trees, wires and hills all by themselves..... |
Gaviman,
It happens on long lines. Ground effect is not a factor. Nick I'm working on the usual scenario but Shawn's explanation fits that scenario. |
Nick, i was thinking more along the lines of over pitching. The "natural" panic reaction when the ground is coming up is to pull more collective. Agreed it wouldn't help with CFIT, but then ABS doesn't stop tail gating...
Thanks Lama - interesting discussion. |
Nick, if you are still out in cyberspace while you sort Bell out - do you have updated links to all the excellent info you posted much earlier on this thread?(the others don't work any more)
I have been spreading the gospel regarding the VRS myths but could use some diagrams and data to convince some Doubting Thomases. |
Crab, have you seen this site:
Vortex Ring State |
Mighty Gem - yes thanks, I saw that the first time round but phrases like -
'rotor wake(s) being tracked in a Lagrangian sense using the free-vortex method of Bhagwat & Leishman' I know Nick's web pages had some more 'pilot-friendly' info but none of the links work any more - I guess he has moved to another provider. |
are a bit beyond my O level maths |
Hello all!
I'm very glad to see my thread on the subject of VRS keeps re-surfacing. Over NINE years now :ok: |
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Marvellous! Thanks very much Nick, I trust the new job is going well.
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Have been reviewing this thread from the beginning and finding it useful. I am trying to locate the website(s) frequently referred to in Nick Lappos's posts, but none of these links now work. Alternatively, looking for the formula mentioned for calculating downwash velocity. Any pointers?
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From the momentum theory the induced flow can be calculated using the formula
Vi = √[ T / 2 ρ A ] where Vi Induced Flow Velocity [m s^-1] T Thrust (approximately equal to weight in a hover). [N] ρ Air Density [kg m^-3] A Disc Area [m^2] This is only an approximation, but is a good starting point for calculations involving the rotor system. If you want any more PM me. |
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Vany:
Thanks. Trying to estimate downwash velocity for my Enstrom 480. After struggling with unit conversions for a bit, finally got it!:ok: Mighty Gem: Thanks, but this links to different info than the one Nick gave in earlier posts. |
VRC
Hi to all VRS fans out there. So what's a nice guy like me doing here on a warm Easter Sunday morning ... I logged on to the thread at 08.00 hrs and two hours later seem to have covered more than 280 or so posts.
That's something I love about pprune ... being able to read the studies and experiences of the likes of Shawn, Nick, and the other highly experienced and knowledgable guys so there's no question of any egg sucking lessons coming from me. But as a 14,000 hr rotary guy - can I put in my two pennorth and relate some adjacent VRS experiences. First I'm a trifle concerned to know I have been teaching what apparently is an incorrect VRS recovery technique in advocating zero use of collective lever ... my reasoning being that whilst it may assist recovery due to the reduction in downflow, the associated loss of height is unacceptable in a real situation. So at grass roots level in training for the VRS exercise, I demonstrate the well established, One-Two-Three technique. Having completed the pre-exercise checks, 'Number One' is to select a suitable LS picture albeit from altitude with power set to provide a suitable ROD (circa 60 knots.) Once settled in a steady descent ...the establishment of the 'Number One' condition for VR is emphasised. VR requirement 'Number Two' is introduced with aft cyclic to progressively reduce speed at some 5 knots per second to below translational lift speed. I like to point out the change in airframe attitude and increase in ROD as translational lift is lost. As has been said here, it is important that aircraft attitude remains steady if we are to find that elusive VR tube of air! With the VSI indication showing an increase, I invite my pilot to increase ROD with a further lowering of lever. Now we need to wait for say 5 to 10 seconds as the airframe settles in a steady but increased ROD. The establishment of the 'Number Two' condition is emphasised. With a solid vocal warning, condition 'Number Three' is introduced with a firm,(possible panic mode) raising of lever. In the case of the Enstrom/SH300/MD500 series, the usual indications are: airframe buffet, random yaw and roll, disc flapping and RRPM variation invariably accompanied by an increase ROD. The right yaw can be quite severe but recovers .. see later. To achieve the condition, which for the first 20 or so seconds is incipient, it is important the pilot uses minimum control inputs, especially with cyclic. Recovery is the usual forward cyclic to obtain a positive ASI reading before applying power. The highly experienced FE who does my client's skills tests prefers the combined cyclic AND collective lever recovery, so this method is also shown, while I emphasise the extra loss of height that may not be adviseable in a real situation. Now here is where I need help. I explain to my pilots that the random yaw, (always right in the above mentioned types) is due to the loss of T/R effectiveness in the disturbed air, but the self-recovery is due to the T/R blades finding smoother air at the edges of the disc. On one occasion I experienced a rapid 90 degree disc roll to the right which I decided was due to the M/R blade tips doing a ditto. Not a good explanation perhaps so the whiz kids invited to explain please. Following the rapid roll experience, I do recall my gentlemanly Irish 500 pilot saying at the time ... 'Dennis - please can we not practice that particular exercise again.' Just a closing note and as I have written elsewhere - being intrigued by the off-quoted airflow reversal as the upgoing air punches through the centre of the disc - I decided to investigate by super-glueing a couple of dozen wool tufts to the fixed mast on a SH 300 and then running through the VR exercise. The 300 has excellent overhead vision so I was delighted to find my tufts flapping nicely in the turbulent airflow with their tails now obediently pointing skywards! A Eureka moment for me. I'd found the airflow reversal! As has been said, let's keep this subject going for ever for all to read. Take care all ppruners. Dennis K. |
Dennis:
Sadly won't be coming to UK for 20th May - some other time perhaps? My preferred method of demonstration for VRS incipient stage is - start in level flt at 60 knots, downwind (and this only works downwind). Reduce power by about 20% of power for level flight (not % torque, % of power being used) and decelerate maintaining altitude. The point is to show the symptoms - and they start as the airspeed reduces through about 15-10 knots - low frequency airframe buffeting, followed by uncommanded pitch, roll and yaw, and if power is increased, a possible increase in rate of descent. The aim is to make the student aware of the symptoms they'll see and feel and hear in the cockpit and like stalls in a FW airplane, stay away from them, or recover at the first sign of them. |
As has been said, let's keep this subject going for ever for all to read. |
Regardless of different type characteristics, the main sympton that must be recognised is always, the beginnings of a very unpalatable sinking feeling in the pit of the stomach.
The student that grasps the mettle at that point and demonstrates effective recovery is on a winner. Those who gravitate, (ahem) to the feelings, being a tightening of a lower muscle in the body form will inevitably be sh@t on from a great height. |
Light Vs Heavy-Risking Vortex Ring
:confused:I am amidst a discussion with some of our fellas.:ugh:.... Need some expert opinions:8
For a RW pilot flying (rather descending from a peak to the valley bottom) with feel, visual perspective,sensory cues and probably with some cursory reference to instruments- ASI, VSI and Alti ("seat of the pants".. as most of us: ..pilot's..; would tend to, during such routine shuttles of short flight-legs in the mountains) is it more probable to enter/ risk entry into Vortex Ring state (Main Rotor) in... (a) Lightly loaded (AUW) heptr (Say empty with minimal fuel) OR (b) Same ac Loaded to Max Capacity (MAUW) Some brief explanation for the same...perhaps with specific cases of effect of winds:D. I believe:ok:, contrary to popular opinion:=, its the lighter heptr that would catch the pilot early into vortex ring than the heavier one..??!!! |
Vortex ring state happens when the downwash velocity from the main rotor equals the speed of the up-flowing air.
It's impossible to say whether lighter or heavier weight will make a difference - it depends on the amount of power being used in the descent (lower power setting equals less downwash velocity which means you can get vortex ring state at a lower rate of descent) |
With my respect for Shawn unabated, I must respectfully disagree with him. There is a meaningful difference between the two cases, light vs heavy.
But first we must clarify what we mean by Vortex Ring State (VRS) - and what is meant by a different problem called "Settling with Power (SWP)" or "over pitching" or "insufficient power to Hover OGE" Most accidents where a hovering helicopter falls and crashes and VRS is blamed are actually cases of SWP or over pitching, where the hover performance is marginal, and insufficient reserve power (power margin) is available to allow moderate climbs and descents while OGE. The aircraft "falls through" the hover, hits hard (usually with just a bent helicopter and bruised ego) and then someone says "It was VRS." Sometimes the mistaken person is an official accident investigator! In a helicopter at high MGW, with only slight or no margin between the power needed to HOGE and the power available from the engines, "over pitching" is more likely than in a lightly loaded helicopter where lots of power above hover power is available. When lightly loaded, there is much extra power available above the hover power, so the lightly loaded helo is much less likely to experience "over pitching" and thus the lightly loaded helo is much less likely to be mistakenly labeled as a VRS accident. Now the truth: Since true VRS involves the descent of the helicopter into its own downwash, and since in a light helicopter the downwash velocity is quite a bit less than in that same helicopter when heavy, a lightly loaded helicopter needs much less rate of descent to experience true VRS. Thus, heavy helicopters require more descent rate to get true VRS, and so are less likely to enter that state, but heavily loaded helicopters have more over pitching power control accidents that are too often labeled "VRS", so the mistaken pilot lore says heavy helicopters are more likely to experience VRS. For the record, no helicopter can experience true VRS unless it is descending nearly vertically at about 800 to 1000 feet per minute. Also for the record, most helicopters can experience SWP or overpitching at rates of descent near zero if they have little hover power margin. Also, heavily loaded helicopters have less propensity to enter VRS because they need more vertical descent rate than lightly loaded helicopters, which need less descent rate to get into VRS. |
Maybe...................
For the record, no helicopter can experience true VRS unless it is descending nearly vertically at about 800 to 1000 feet per minute. Starting to drift off topic a little, but what is wrong with this.................. If you fly level at a hill which has an upslope of 30 degrees (not that steep) with a 25 knot tailwind, the following should/could happen. At 25 knots groundspeed as you approach the hill you would have zero airspeed. In fact at 50 knots groundspeed your ASI will probably read zero. The vertical component of the wind would be ~ 11Knots or ~ 1100 FPM. Plenty right for VRS. The VSI would read ZERO. If the hill is 45 degrees for the same vertical component you would only need 15 knots of wind. 100 FPM is only ~ 1 Knot after all. In this situation you are flying where the ASI won't tell you much and neither will the VSI. Where VRS can get you is where the wind blows parallel to the rising ground. It will get worse as you get closer to the hill (Up to a point where surface friction will start to affect things).It is true that VRS will not get you if you have relative flow across the disk. At these low speeds the ASI will not indicate much. The indication which will also catch you is that you are not descending according the static instruments (ALT/VSI/IVSI) and you are using LESS power than you would be in a hover (Where hover = zero airspeed). You are descending at ~1100 FPM after all. If it feels too good to be true, that is probably right. Also your escape route is blocked by rising ground. That is why this style of approach is very dangerous. Remember all these scenarios are for a LEVEL approach. Add in a little decent and it all happens a lot easier. If you think these conditions don't happen, I have experienced a climb in a Bell 205 at 11,200lbs with the needles split! Back to your subject - as pointed out, a lighter helicopter is more susceptible than a heavier helicopter, but I think the point should be a lower disk loading versus a higher disk loading. i.e. disk area/weight. Go and talk to an experienced Cheetah/Chetak mountain pilot. Be quick as those aircraft will evidently be gone next year. :cool: |
RVDT,
This is getting to be a fun thread. Let me weigh in a bit: The theory that a wind against a slope would produce such a smooth flow that it would look like a steady descent is just that - theory. In reality, the typical turbulence and flow disturbance that the ground imparts on the air would make your case nothing more than a bumpy ride. The flow that makes VRS is steady and smooth, with exact angles of descent (vertical will not do it, about 8 knots forward as you descend is the critical condition). One can theorize a glass-smooth slope, and the perfect storm of slope, wind speed and flight condition, but in actuality, it is simply not possible. |
VRS Verticality
Ramen,
Must agree with Nick and therefore disagree with you on the verticality question. In several test programs on different models, all have been consistent in that VRS was achieved only with vertical descents. Vertical means relative to the air mass, now, so if there is some wind, the descent must be at zero translational velocity relative to the air mass. Its a lot harder to find that perfect spot than a lot of people think. Thanks, John Dixson |
Ramen,
Glad I don't have to fly in the mountains with you. I have found this sweet spot many times when a young and inexperienced sprog pilot. Luckily I never hit anything solid before I worked it out. The sweet spot in these conditions WILL find you, but maybe only 1 in 100. As JD says it is difficult to find the exact spot but when you do it will be pretty clear. As I pointed out 800-1100 FPM is only 8-11 Knots. Hence the methods used in the mountains are to avoid exactly this condition. Go ask a Llama pilot what makes his sphincter twitch. |
I have the utmost respect for both Nick and John and am very glad Nick took the time to point out the difference between VRS and SWP as there is much confusion out there between the 2. So much so that Transport Canada has mandated that during PPC check rides, the examiner must question the applicant on these items ( as well as dynamic roll over).
I am glad John has qualified Nick's statement about vertical descents being relative to the air mass. As someone who has been in VRS a few times (both intentionally and NOT) I can tell you that you can get into it while definitely not APPEARING to be in a vertical descent ( downwind). Also I would like to qualify Nick's statement: "For the record, no helicopter can experience true VRS unless it is descending nearly vertically at about 800 to 1000 feet per minute." I do believe he meant to say, "no MODERN helicopter....." Again from experience, I can tell you an S61 can enter this at between 300 and 500 ROD, not sure of the exact number as I was kinda busy at this point ;) Also, thanks Nick for the explanation about the reason why a lightly loaded helicopter has more propensity to enter VRS than a heavy one......I knew that was the case, but never knew why. |
Now that it seems we have gotten Nick's attention back on this board ( good to see you back) I would like to ask you once again to explain the relation ship between the tail rotor disk and the fin area. I say once again as you explained this to me once over the phone, but I want be sure of the numbers.
For the record, I was asking Nick about the size of the tail fin and its effect on keeping the a/c sort of going in the right direction in a tail rotor failure. Nick explained a glaring difference that I had not considered. Tail rotor DRIVE failure (tail rotor stopped) and fixed pitch failure. Nick, can I ask you to explain again, I seem to remember a number of 1.3 times the area......... |
Hi Nick, Shawn, John,
Thanks for your comments. I have heard and read a few different views with regards to removing yourself from VRS. Will the aircraft react to cyclic inputs similarly to normal flight? Would you pull maximum power or enter autorotation? What are your views? Regards, bb |
Respectfully to Nick:
A very light disk loaded helicopter can get into VRS at much less than 800 fpm. And for bb: A positive forward cyclic movement to get at least 20 degrees nose down will start you going into forward flight. No need to enter autorotation. But be positive with the cyclic input - it will work eventually. |
A positive forward cyclic movement to get at least 20 degrees nose down will start you going into forward flight. No need to enter autorotation. But be positive with the cyclic input - it will work eventually. All true, however if altitude allows (and it rarely does) entering autorotation would be a way out. A disk in autorotation can not, by definition, be in VRS. |
fENESTRON vS cONVENTIONAL TR (THRUST/POWER/SIZE)
To Nick, Shawn, John, RVDT, and all the Experts... Please enlighten with your comments on the subject...
Vis-a-vis a Conventional Tail Rotor (TR)... 1. ...Fenestron produces same thrust with a smaller size..?? 2. ...Fenestron consumes same power for equivalent thrust output...?? 3. ...Ring-fin is best amongst the three..?? 4. ...NOTAR has better/same/poorer directional control availability in MR VRS..?? Thankyou all in anticipation... -Praveen |
Outwest
You mention entering autorotation at a low altitude to get out of VRS. If already low enough not to be interested in placing the nose attitude down a healthy bit to fly off the VRS state just how low an altitude would you actually choose to enter autorotation and what would be the outcome? I'm having a tough time with this autorotation solution due to the proximity of ground. When muddling with blade element theory of lift I really don't understand the flow transition from VRS to autorotation being very useful. My stomach says ouch, but in the practical there may be something to your idea I'm just not getting. My 40+ years flying helicopters has always told me to push the cyclic slightly forward, and/or the collective down just a bit, at the slightest hint of VRS (far removed from SWP) and life remains good. This, to my mind, actually tends to save altitude and options for figuring to continue or overshoot an approach. If really wound up in a healthy VRS, which may have been the case a couple times for myself, I did place the nose attitude down a healthy fashion to fly off and away from the problem - thankfully altitude was sufficient. Experienced these situations in mountain flying. Thanks. WIII |
WWIII,
not sure if it is your english skills or mine, but please re-read my post and tell me where I advocated entering autorotation at a low altitude. On the contrary, I said rarely will you have the altitude to accomplish this......or at least that was what I intended to say. I was responding to Shawn's post, hence the quote. If you do re-read my post, the first thing I said in response to him was "All true"........meaning his description of how to extricate oneself from VRS was correct. My comment was in response to his "no need to enter autorotation".......which again, with my first statement "All true" I agreed with. However, just to clarify, that if by chance you were at a high enough altitude, say during a training exercise demonstrating VRS, by lowering the collective into autorotation, you would no longer be in VRS. Simply stating an aerodynamic fact. |
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Outwest
Thanks, you're right. " All true, however if altitude allows (and it rarely does) entering autorotation would be a way out. A disk in autorotation can not, by definition, be in VRS. " You indicate altitude rarely allows entering autorotation - my problem! Apologies. RVDT Thanks, the article probably will 'Knock me out'. WIII |
No worries WIII, actually glad we clarified that........would not want any youngsters to think bottoming the pole at low altitude would be a way out :eek:
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NO Replies as yet..."fENESTRON vS cONVENTIONAL TR (THRUST/POWER/SIZE)"
Knock.... knock...
Anybody Home Awaiting inputs on my earlier post dated 04 Aug: :rolleyes: Code:
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VRS---- Once again--- Light or Heavy that is the Question..!!
:confused:I am confused ,..:confused:yet again... but due seemingly contravening stands on this Issue by the best of oue bests...
Request the Old hands to clear the air for us... Can we have some inputs from undoubtedly our infallible seniors... Ray Prouty, Nick, Shawn, etc. Quote: Code:
Rotor & Wing Magazine :: Vortex Ring State and Gross Weight Code:
and Code:
What would be the correct thing to propagate to the youngsters....??? Personally, I guess this one time, I would (most respectfully) differ with Ray:=... and agree with Nick,,, lest there more to it in between these two ideologies.... Is there still more to it than it seems till now ??? |
My two bob's worth:
Conditions beyond which you MAY get into, at least, incipient VRS: low ias <20 kts highish ROD>500 ft/min low power setting but then rapidly increasing power. What's happening? At tips vortex ingestion reducing angle of attack=less lift - at root increasing collective pitch causes angle of attack to go beyond stalling angle=less lift therefore portion of blade producing lift is shrinking towards the middle=overall much less lift. Situation to avoid: Steep approach gone wrong - try to correct by dumping lever - hauling back on the stick - then "oh sh1t" now haul in lever to stop increasing ROD. Now low/slow and no room to carry out corrective action ie lower nose/lever. Lesson: don't try and salvage a stuffed up approach - admit defeat early, swallow pride and go around. SWP: engines have been "topped" - increasing lever beyond this point means more drag and no more engine power to sustain RRPM. Solution: check RFM and know where your helicopter runs out of puff IGE/OGE with respect to DA. GAGS E86 |
Hi Guys, i have found this thread really interesting, and nearly all of it confirms what i had always understood, I have however found one major discrepency which regards the effect of gross weight on VRS. I had always believed the Hot/High/Heavy scenario, which i now understand is much more relevant to Settling with power than vortex ring itself, however from reading this I gather that at a lower gross weight/disc area loading, that VRS can be achieved at a lower ROD!? :ooh: I understand the reasoning for this from the explanations above however I had always believed the opposite & I would much appreciate if someone could clarify.
I used to believe that vortex ring state developed because a relatively high ROD airflow caused the blade root to stall due to the angle of attack being above the stall angle, as the pilot attempts to recover this he may apply more collective in an attempt to reduce the ROD, however this pushes the stall area over a greater area along the blade as greater pitch angle is selected and further reduces lift, further increasing the ROD, all of this time the tip vortices are also strengthening and a lack of translational lift causes them to recirculate into the disc reducing lift at the tips from a reduced angle of attack due to the large induced flow. In this case i figure that an increase is gross weight/disc loading is likely to make the situation worse because the initial stall may develop at a smaller ROD due to the higher collective pitch settings however is what i have described not VRS, (but SWP??) I would not call this settling with power because however much power you had available applying power would not get you out of this situation it would actually deepen the effect of the recirculation at the tips and not improve the stall at the root? Could someone possible clarify where i am going wrong if the aforementioned scenario is not VRS. Aucky |
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