Re: apache pilots required
 

The Brits did not invent this concept. The American Army by far loses more Pilots due to their moronic policies. I continue to meet some fine young folks who have gotten out due to being a rated pilot and flying a desk (and continual deployment outside the U.S.). Its been going on for years, but the "Generals" never seem to learn and besides they are all comfortable.
Its called "Busy Work" for Junior Officers as the Army cannot give them "blade time" which is budgeted for active combat units. So they train them, piss them off and lose them...........
Back after Vietnam went down the toilet, I remember we were restricted to 80 hours a year, not much for "building time"

Re: apache pilots required
 

Bert,

Beyond agreeing completely with you...one must also recall the active duty Army is merely a holding pen for cadre to form vast numbers of units should the Balloon go up for real. That being said...can you imagine some of the Dud's being given real tasks to complete?

At least we have Guard and Reserve units that are out doing the job instead of playing Sunny Glade Day camp like it used to be. They are actually using the equipment instead of merely maintaining it.

My old Guard unit flies Apaches and is part of the active duty 82nd Airborne Division....maybe the Brits need to consider such a notion....incorporate TA units into their force structure. That way...the pilots learn to fly the machine on Active Duty...then when they leave for civvie life they can join the TA unit and continue flying the machine....or do they have such a system in place now?

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Front Seater:

Late start Mondays and early finish Fridays like the other two services; get with the plot my dear chap! Light Blue Sqn, currently supporting 3 different ops on top of Ex Tropical Storm, Clockwork, Jebel Sahara, Mountain Lion, Eagles Blah and Herricks Whatsit. Old airframes in desperate need of replacement (read extension to 2024 if the latest rumours are to believed) not withstanding the IDT, IRT, CCS, FPC, WHT etc. Oh and don't forget the ISS, JOCC, JEWC, JAEWC, CEWIC, QHTI. Oops almost forgot the Airtests and Groundruns.

We're all in the same situation......

SO MAN UP WET PANTS!

Re: apache pilots required
 

I think the main problem is simply that those who were 'converted' to the Apache joined the service to fly and not to ponce about in a simmulator with few 'real' flying hours. A newer breed who expect nothing other than this will last longer but having said that the AAC internal recruitment and manpower maintenance has not been conducive to retention for over 10 years - irrespective of the governments half assed policies.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Crabincab,
If your stupid enough to put up with it then more the fool you, I'm not on AH and don't suffer the way these chaps do, but just because you also suffer doesn't make it right either. Its not as if the wages service pilots get is remotely reflective of the monies our cushy airline friends get.

so I'm sure many of the AH drivers will continue in the sterling manner that they have already in delivering AH capability; on time, under budget and to a very high standard. But they have a point, flying GH with the AH is very, very different to fighting AH competently!

PP Out...

Re: apache pilots required
 

Such as 658 Squadron and 666 Squadron at Netheravon, and 3 and 6 flights at Leuchars and Shawbury for example. I've no doubt that could be expanded and more capable aircraft than the current Gazellicopters used.

G

Re: Apache pilots required
 

Sasless
Therin lies another problem. The Active units are short handed so the Reserves are filling in the gap more than they really want too. As the sign in the window of a Hum V in Iraq as seen in the news said. "One weekend a month My Ass"

Re: Apache pilots required
 

The problems with the program are many and complex and no one single issue could be cured without knock on effects in other areas.

It was decided in the early stages that the training would be in the UK rather than the US. One wonders whether this was done with a view to perhaps providing training to other Apache users in Europe and the Middle East. This was doomed to fail as soon as the UK model was 'Anglicised' with so much deviation from the US model. As a result, the training is very expensive i.e in the order of 1 million pounds in UK rather than circa $350,000 in the US for the type conversion alone.

The type conversion takes 6 months with a further 6 months for operational role training, excellent training but somewhat longer than the 15 week US course. Most of this is driven by the narrow focus of resources of only one simulator in the flight school and only a dozen or so aircraft for the training pipeline training about 20-24 aircrew every six months.

A significant engineering and logistics problem are the new 'just in time' spares provisions. The bean counters dont understand that the 2-3 days or more likely 2-3 weeks to provide a spare part means a loss of some 5 productive flight hours per day of aircrew training.

Yes, the taxpayer wants to see something for his/her money and I can assure you that those that have qualified on the machine so want to fly it and deliver the capability. That delivery however; is hampered by the frustration above and many more, not least the career structure and lack of training munitions.

It just does not seem possible to deliver the numbers required through the bottleneck of the training pipeline in order to fully man the frontline as quickly as it is required. Why you may ask do we not invest and send a couple of courses to the US and give them a differences course on return, costing significantly less than a pure UK training course?

Alas, money is everything these days and you only get what you pay for. I would still ask though, is it not cheaper to train in the US followed by a small conversion course costing maybe 40% of what the current conversion to type does?

HEDP

Re: Apache pilots required
 

I heard the old saying was...."The British Navy did not amount to much until they shot a few Admirals."

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

PP,

Didn't say I agreed with it, just that most of us (if not all) are in the same boat!

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Don't visit an LCC pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.

It is not all roses in the commercial world.Better paid mind.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

There is a RAF post available on 3 Regt, just hasn't been taken up for the last several years.........

Re: Apache pilots required?
 

Ahhh, Admiral Byng. No Royal Navy commander turned down an invitation to fight from there on, regardless of the odds.

Re: Apache pilots required?
 

Apache Pilots Required?

I really don't know about their aeronautical skills??

Plus they look like they would want to go Union right away.

http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/PP...e-Squadron.jpg

Re: Apache pilots required?
 

I can't speak for the rest, but the fellow in the bottom row, second from the left, was my roommate in flight school. He was a pretty good stick back then. Uncanny sense of direction. Never was captured during the escape and evasion exercise. The ladies loved him for his big tomahawk Last I heard he was flying in the North Sea.

Ref the RAF exchange at 3 Regt. For a few years the DRQHI was RAF when the Regt was at Soest. After that I recall a crab Flt Comd (rank of Sqn Ldr) at 653 Sqn.
To train a guy or girl for 12-14 mth, to only get 18 mth return of service before they return to the RAF then have nothing further to do with Attack Aviation doesn't make sense. At least the Army officers who move on after the same investment end up at desks that revolve around 16 AA Bde or DAAvn and pass on hard earned knowledge onto the staff officers that sit a little higher.

Rich
You made me spill my coffee!
Looks like your room mate Bull Dog doesn't want to show his tomahawk in case he upsets Little Thunder seated next to him (who seems quite happy to display his BTW)

Judging by the happy expressions this phot was taken in the days before Preparation H was widely available.

W

Part-timers
 

Out of curiosity, I've just 'googled' this from the Boeing website:
U.S. Army National Guard and Reserve
Nine U.S. Army National Guard (ARNG) and two U.S. Army Reserve (USAR) components are now flying the AH-64 Apache. The ARNG attack battalion in Arizona flies the more advanced AH-64D Apache Longbow; all other units in the Reserve Component fly the AH-64A Apache.
States with ARNG units flying Apaches include Arizona , Idaho , Mississippi , Missouri , North Carolina , Pennsylvania , South Carolina , Tennessee , Texas , and Utah . The USAR units flying Apaches are located in Kentucky and Texas . Texas is the only state with both ARNG and USAR Apache battalions.
ARNG units have been fully engaged in operations around the world including Operation Enduring Freedom, Bosnia and Kosovo.
Are the pilots all ex-Regular and just the F/T component of the NG / Reserve ?
How many hours does a reservist in North Carolina have to fly each month to remain current on the AH-64 ?

OVC,
You are correct with the statement that at least the AAC officer remains in an AH desk job or appointment, not sure that I support the view that they pass on quality information; more their own opinion which is often what the hierarchy want to hear rather than what is actually happening or is required/needed.

The biggest problems occur when an officer makes a decision that is only taken in order to get him/her through their 2 year posting; and because they are unlikely to return to front line aviation they will never be made accountable for the desperate situation that is left behind. Things like ...HALS,Spares,Helmets,Breakout-Tools, Navbags,Ammo,MPS and not to forget the manning crisis and the many more greatly managed projects that remain inadequate or unavailable.

Oh and everything Else can go on the risk register...that must be like yellow pages by now!

I could be wrong though?:bored:
PP.

Frog Prince.

The Army National Guard units are not all ex-regular soldiers.
I was lucky enough to do an Apache course at Fort Rucker, where the majority of aviators who were on A model Apache were from Guard units, mostly converting from Cobra, a lot of them were young men off the street, who joined the local Guard unit insteed of joining the regular army. They are CW1 and above, they have an obligation to return a set number of years and a set number of days on duty. One fella who was on the cse in ahead of me from New Jersey was a UH1 pilot, and flew on the 100 aircraft lift for Hamburger Hill (I'm not talking the film!) another fella Charlie (great guy on the p155) from the same unit was also a Vietnam war veteran.

I don't know how many hours they fly, I didn't keep in touch with the people I was with at Rucker, I'll see if I can dig out an email address and ask for you.

An AH-64 aviator (A or D) has to fly 140 hours per year whether they are in the active componet or the National Guard. This flight time can be reduced if they enter late in their training year.

Isn't this the latest picture of the new recruits for the
PC division of Ethnic pinks at the London Met!:suspect:

Vfr

Part Timers
 

Many thanks for the 'gen'. There's hope for 6 and 7 Regts AAC (V) in 2012 (2017?) then !

:hmm:

'Ang about - those blankets look familiar. Are they on a course at Wallop? I wonder if by the end of the course that photo will have some red Xs across a few faces.

6 Regt will not see AH as it will have no aircraft because its function is to backfill groundcrew on Ops.

7 Regt, hmm, that would be a major coup.

Futurology
 

Oh, I know 6 Regt AAC(V) is groundies only. I have a personal interest in these developments.

The roles of both 6 and 7 will evolve over time - hence the reference to 2012. By then the Gazelles will be gone, to be replaced by (insert fav choice), Future Lynx, SABR, Watchkeeper UAV, UCAV etc. will be with us. In short, the demand for aviation in the future battlespace is only increasing whilst market forces will cause the usual peaks and troughs in demand for ex-military aircrew to go ATPL / CPL.

Logically, reservists are a flexible labour force to complement the Regulars. Given the size of the GA pool in the UK, it is entirely feasible for the AAC to source pilots into military aviation who have not come from the ex-Regular route. This obviously works for the US Army, even with as complex an airframe/weapons system as AH-64.

Intersting points FP, however Future Lynx and SABR are dead, BRH is the new buzz word and even if accepted at UK PLC level won't be here until 2012 at the earliest according to industry sources.

As for joe bloggs walking in off the street to fly AH at the weekend in order to integrate fully into an op unit as and when surely is pure fantasy in the UK.

We are after all talking about the UK Defence Budget

Tee hee...
 

I don't really imagine a reservist will be flying AH anytime soon.

However, that doesn't preclude their use for other aircraft, such as UAV's when the CAA tells the army it needs qualified pilots to fly Watchkeeper in uncontrolled airspace and there aren't enough to go around quickly enough.

Feasible isn't the same as practical or likely !

By extension, this also means that Uncle Sam must have money to burn on a capability that is neither effective nor deployable, which I doubt.

As usual, too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.....

AHQHI656SQN or any other AH driver:

Is the rumour true that AH pilots now qualify at CTT without having live fired at all, and will only fire cannon during CR training. I Heard it in the crew room and argued that it couldn't be true. As an old Mk7 TOW driver and having to fire TOW during CTT to qualify surely this is not the case?

If it is true it marks the beginning of the end for AH....and so soon!


PP

Frog,

I cannot answer the flying hour question. However, the Guard and Reserve pilots are not full time soldiers. A very small number are and are called Technicans when working as a Civil Service employee at the Guard Flight Activity. The Technicians would be called Cadre in some places but serve a dual role when in the Guard.

The Guard is the State Militia and are subject to both State and Federal duty if called by the Governor or President for active service.

The Reserve has no State obligation.

These folks are our neighbors...the banker, plumber, lawyer, truck driver....teacher...accountants....who are not "full time" members of the military. When they finish their deployment to Iraq and other places...they revert to their regular professions.

Not all the pilots are from "active duty" and many have done only Guard service with all flight training and conversion courses being done at Active Duty Army Schools.

Guard Pilots must meet the exact same standards their active duty brethern do....they attend extra training sessions beyond the one weekend a month and two weeks active duty training each year.

The notion only Active Service people can accomplish the mission does not hold water. Add to that, our Reserve and National Guard troops are an integral part of many "Active" units....and do so as "units" and not individual "replacements or fillers".

Peoplespoet.

I'm not sure if you are fishing here, like you know the answer and you're just looking for it to be backed up by somebody who's on this forum overtly.

The truth is I wasn't aware that CTT no longer had an ammunition allocation, and that CTR would only fire 30mm DP, I'm now curious. There hasn't been any such chat in our crewroom.

Please check your PM's.

I am in agreement with you Tom that i have heard nothing of the ammunition being cut for CTT or CTR. Think PP is fishing, and all you have to do is look at the amount we have for the forth coming exercise loads of bangs. Sorry PP but think you may be ill informed on this one.

CPG and Peoplespoet.
I've had it from a very good source that it is true about the ammo being cut from CTT. I do wonder how SAAvn will train its instructors on weapons if they don't get to fire live ammo, then there will be a credabilty issue, how can an instructor talk about diving fire if he's never done it.
This could be the very thin edge of a long wedge!

I am not fishing, I'm no reporter. Thought it was a fair question best answered by an AH driver.

I agree that we are at the thin end of the wedge if you don't have to live fire to qualify from CTT. What next? you will be telling me that Mountain flying or NVG has been removed.

Never mind put it on the 'risk register' and as long as the field army can pick up the pieces then nothing is lost. I do wish that when we have money taken from our training that our lords and masters would just turn round and say No. I understand that pressure will be placed to still achieve and thats understandable, but at what long term cost?

I wonder how a civilian company would deal with a situation where they cant afford a component vital to the production line. Just leave it out and hope it still works when it's switched on? Good planning and management that would be..Not.

I do remember reading a phrase that the British forces once had great pride in "Train Hard...Fight Easy", must have been a lie as it never caught on at all in aviation.

PP.

Very cynical

I also remember the Ministries reasons for reducing the Armed Forces not so long ago included:

A leaner but much better equipped Armed Forces...Ive first hand experience of the lean as well as the mean but with regard the equipment...not seen.

:mad:

Peoplespoet.
There has to be a requirement for any project to get funding; here is some food for thought.
When was the last time that any fighting formation relied upon the AAC to win a battle?
The majority of the senior officers in the Army right now will have come through the BAOR School of war fighting, where the Lynx with TOW was always the last resort when calling HELARM now, Mk 1 Lynx to the rescue! To be fair whenever the Lynx live fired it was with PRAC so that wouldn't really impress the socks off anybody would it? So in my opinion very little faith was put in it. The Lynx was never funded to go to BATUS why? When it did make the odd cameo appearance it had such a devastating effect the Cavalry had very little to do. Get off my train set, BATUS was set up for Armour! Enough said!
The modern Battle Group commander who is outside of 16 AA Bde (24 Bde before it) will not get the intimate working knowledge of the new Army Air Corps, as all of the Armed Regiments now Attack Regiments are in one basket, to be fair even 16 AA Bde didn't really grasp what 3 Regt had to offer during Op Telic 1, it took 7 Bde to get the most out of Lynx TOW and the mighty Gazelle. As for 847 NAS they were devastating and made a massive impact. 3 Bde don’t go anywhere without Avn!
So onto funding issues. 3 quick fire questions and answers:
1. Does Arty struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that an AS90 or MLRS crew don't qualify without live firing lots of ammo. Hey Churchill has Arty ever played a decisive roll in any battles? Oh yes! You can bet your arris it has, it’s so "well in"!
2. Does Armour struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know a tank commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has armour ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
3. Does infantry struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that a Warrior commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has Infantry ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
There is a pattern emerging.
The teeth arms have a great deal of support in the higher echelons and as much of a force multiplier as aviation is, everybody is fighting for funding.
Now if the tank was to replace the horse on the battle field then hundreds of horses will be surplus to requirement, so just imagine if the helicopter was to replace the tank? Everybody knows that will never happen; there will always be a need for armour. I’m not sure how much support the AAC and Apache gets when it comes to the odd funding battle. The hype about fire and forget missiles the video footage of Apache destroying targets with impunity and ease give the wrong impression, it looks easy, so it must be! If it’s easy then why do you need to train? Train Hard Fight Easy!
Now a big issue. Officer careers. A young Army Officer straight out of Sandhurst goes AAC, spends about 18 mth pilot training, then if he’s really lucky he’ll get loaded onto An Apache CTT (these start every 6 mth so if the timing is wrong he could wait up to 5 mth) CTT lasts for 6 mth, then 6 mth CTR, he’s been in the Army 2 ½ years without even commanding himself let alone men. His piers in the Infantry and Cavalry would have been Tp/Plt commanders, done BATUS maybe an Op tour, how can he compete? But he has to. As a result the CTT package must not exceed 6 mth, make it fit SAAvn!

I’ve heard the odd rumour about poor flying rates at Dishforth, the reasons vary from no spares, no techs and even no pilots, cos they’re away doing Army orientated disciplines. I’ll bet every pilot has done OPTAG trg prior to Herrick! What ever the reason it would appear that the Army will soon be asking these lads (a lot of them mates of mine) to do some serious sh1t. Now if pre-tour flying rates are low for what ever the reason then the AAC will have learnt nothing. A few people kicking about will remember Ploce in 1995! Not good, and I hope and pray there’s no repeat.

I said at the beginning “there has to be a requirement for any project to get funding”.
One simple question. Does the Army consider the amount of funding required for Apache to be good value for money?
Until Army Avn pulls somebody out of the sh1t, I doubt it.

Given this background I wonder if there is any truth that the AH pilots at Dishforth are going to leave when opportunity knocks! Time will tell.

OVC,

Don't worry yourself OVC I read last year in the telegraph that they are 'ready' for war, the CO broadcast his message to the world media during an open day with a battle cry of "just give me someone to fight" so they must be.

After statement like that imagine the humiliation if they are found lacking in any department.......... it will be a nice shiny medal, promotion or an early pension for him for sure!

PP

Ammmunition has not been cut from CTT. It has simply been moved to CTR. Rockets were cut from the training last April for all, 30mmTP is still fully supported.

derrrrr,
It has therefore been cut from CTT; meaning that to pass an attack helicopter conversion course you don't have to demonstrate the ability to actually shoot anything, which was my original point. If its just a case of moving it then why not move, mountains, IF or `night flying?

It will certainly keep the course length down and improve the pass rate!

Is it not the case that the ammunition that would have been fired on the CTT is not included into the ammunition allocation for CTR either, apart for a couple of bangs? Therefore actually cutting the ammunition allocation because there isnt any remaining for training!

P.P.