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-   -   What really upsets me... (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/633188-what-really-upsets-me.html)

Spunk 11th Jun 2020 19:31

What really upsets me...
 
Is there anything which really got you mad when you were watching other pilots and their obvious lack of airmanship?

Yesterday, I was just firing up our EC120 when little dumf*** in his R44 comes around the corner and passes by in close distance and parks the aircraft right in front of me (maybe 60 ft away). His wife jumps out to get the ground handling wheels from the hangar. By the time she gets back (about 1 minute later) the engine is shut down and out jumps Mr. Pilot himself, the blades still spinning at idle speed. The only one left on the controls is Mom's little Chiwawa.

"Oh boy", I hear myself saying. " You better stay here for now and don't move". Mom hands over the wheels to her hubby and act No. 2 starts (remember, those blades are still spinning). He puts on ground handling wheel No.1 and ..... sure enough, jacks up the helicopter on the right hand side.

This was the moment when I decided not to wait any longer and to give a damn about his rotorhead. I backed up and flew away.

Outwest 11th Jun 2020 21:08

Theres no cure for stupid....

LRP 11th Jun 2020 23:00


Originally Posted by Outwest (Post 10808793)
Theres no cure for stupid....

Natural selection is an effective cure.

nomorehelosforme 12th Jun 2020 00:07

It’s a shame you didn’t film it, it could have become a helpful tool for instructors and students alike on the do’s and dont’s after landing

Robbiee 12th Jun 2020 04:44

Hmm, I suppose the exceedingly large number of pilots I see on youtube who don't bother with a simple hover check kinda grinds my gears a bit. They just pick it up and yank it over in one motion,...even after the FAA issued a safety reminder.

[email protected] 12th Jun 2020 10:03


Hmm, I suppose the exceedingly large number of pilots I see on youtube who don't bother with a simple hover check kinda grinds my gears a bit. They just pick it up and yank it over in one motion,...even after the FAA issued a safety reminder.
Then they might actually have to pay attention to the manifold pressure and realise they don't have unlimited performance or a rev limiter like in their cars.

John R81 12th Jun 2020 11:33

"Yanking" the machine off the ground. One day you will do that off-airfield, to find that one skid is a little more stuck than the other and...….. over you go.

Robbiee 12th Jun 2020 15:10


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10809141)
Then they might actually have to pay attention to the manifold pressure and realise they don't have unlimited performance or a rev limiter like in their cars.

You have a rev limiter in your car?

Mutley1013 12th Jun 2020 16:16

I can’t remember the last car I had that didn’t have a rev limiter! Probably something back in the early nineties that did not have an ECU.

Hughes500 12th Jun 2020 16:44

The walk round check that appears to be looking at it from a distance, then getting in and going
Not bothering with rundown checks so as to stop the meter's running

Bell_ringer 12th Jun 2020 19:42

Bitching and moaning about stupid mistakes most of us have made, one way or another?

B407Pilot 12th Jun 2020 19:45


Originally Posted by Spunk (Post 10808730)
Is there anything which really got you mad when you were watching other pilots and their obvious lack of airmanship?

Yesterday, I was just firing up our EC120 when little dumf*** in his R44 comes around the corner and passes by in close distance and parks the aircraft right in front of me (maybe 60 ft away). His wife jumps out to get the ground handling wheels from the hangar. By the time she gets back (about 1 minute later) the engine is shut down and out jumps Mr. Pilot himself, the blades still spinning at idle speed. The only one left on the controls is Mom's little Chiwawa.

"Oh boy", I hear myself saying. " You better stay here for now and don't move". Mom hands over the wheels to her hubby and act No. 2 starts (remember, those blades are still spinning). He puts on ground handling wheel No.1 and ..... sure enough, jacks up the helicopter on the right hand side.

This was the moment when I decided not to wait any longer and to give a damn about his rotorhead. I backed up and flew away.

So let me get this right: This post is about you being upset with the lack of airmanship and you end your post by saying you didn't give a damn about this guy and his helicopter and right next to this guy while his blade was still spinning? Oh, and don't get me wrong! He definitely lacked airmanship. But you didn't display much airmanship yourself.

SFIM 12th Jun 2020 20:58

i definitely believe that there has been a reduction in consideration and common decency over the last 23 years since i started flying.
for example people come storming in and land, or rush to takeoff next to you even if you have the rotor at low speed when either starting up and shutting down,
there is usually no attempt to get a "thumbs up" or coordinate
its not clear to me if this is a lack of knowledge, lack of situational awareness, general lack of consideration or they just dont give a s*** ??

aa777888 12th Jun 2020 22:27

Things are pretty polite around these parts. That's not to say there isn't the occasional issue, but it's the exception and not the rule.

Two's in 12th Jun 2020 22:37

Early in my flying career, while at a civilian airfield I did the pre-flight out of sequence (on a fixed wing) because I thought the battery wouldn't stand too much flap motoring. As I was finishing up, a guy came over to me, and in a very polite and respectful manner asked if I had realized I hadn't done the flap extension check (he was operating the same type). I explained why I was doing it out of sequence, and as the words came out of my mouth, realized I was well on my way to an accident report narrative. I felt chastened, but eventually appreciative that someone had bothered to share their professionalism and diligence in the service of flight safety.

So back to the original post. When we see others operating in an unsafe or unsure manner, don't walk away. Take the time out to question and confirm that things are as they seem. It takes tact and diplomacy not to come across as an asshat, but is it better that someone thought you were a busybody but maybe a learning point was made, or wait until you read the accident report and say "hey, I saw that guy doing that..."

A professional aviator is probably someone who shares the learning and experience whenever possible.

Back door 12th Jun 2020 23:18


Originally Posted by Two's in (Post 10809653)
Early in my flying career, while at a civilian airfield I did the pre-flight out of sequence (on a fixed wing) because I thought the battery wouldn't stand too much flap motoring. As I was finishing up, a guy came over to me, and in a very polite and respectful manner asked if I had realized I hadn't done the flap extension check (he was operating the same type). I explained why I was doing it out of sequence, and as the words came out of my mouth, realized I was well on my way to an accident report narrative. I felt chastened, but eventually appreciative that someone had bothered to share their professionalism and diligence in the service of flight safety.

So back to the original post. When we see others operating in an unsafe or unsure manner, don't walk away. Take the time out to question and confirm that things are as they seem. It takes tact and diplomacy not to come across as an asshat, but is it better that someone thought you were a busybody but maybe a learning point was made, or wait until you read the accident report and say "hey, I saw that guy doing that..."

A professional aviator is probably someone who shares the learning and experience whenever possible.

If there is a pprune post of the month, you would win it for sure, very well said

CGameProgrammerr 13th Jun 2020 00:21

Disembarking with spinning rotors is idiotic but I don't see how jacking up a skid would damage the rotorhead. It obviously is fine when the rotor is still, and it obviously is fine when the rotor is spinning at flight speed because slope landings and especially full-down autos (or hover autos) results is significantly greater shocks to the system. So is there some magic point where the rotor is spinning, but relatively slowly, that somehow makes the rotorhead subject to damage? If it's a reference to ground resonance, that's not an issue with Robinsons.

megan 13th Jun 2020 03:01


So let me get this right: This post is about you being upset with the lack of airmanship and you end your post by saying you didn't give a damn about this guy and his helicopter and right next to this guy while his blade was still spinning? Oh, and don't get me wrong! He definitely lacked airmanship. But you didn't display much airmanship yourself.
B407, my thoughts exactly, although I was too chicken to say it when the OP's post first appeared. His "I decided not to wait any longer and to give a damn about his rotorhead. I backed up and flew away" said it all. I wonder how he would feel if he had caused a mast bumping event that went unnoticed and a subsequent flight caused separation and deaths.

kansarasc 13th Jun 2020 03:36

His R44 didn't nave rotor brakes ? I know some R22s dont have it - the one I am training in doesn't have it but I thought all R44s has it. Why he was in such a hurry ? Full bladder ?

Bell_ringer 13th Jun 2020 06:44


Originally Posted by CGameProgrammerr (Post 10809704)
Disembarking with spinning rotors is idiotic but I don't see how jacking up a skid would damage the rotorhead. It obviously is fine when the rotor is still, and it obviously is fine when the rotor is spinning at flight speed because slope landings and especially full-down autos (or hover autos) results is significantly greater shocks to the system. So is there some magic point where the rotor is spinning, but relatively slowly, that somehow makes the rotorhead subject to damage? If it's a reference to ground resonance, that's not an issue with Robinsons.

When there is a nearby aircraft waiting to take off, the downwash can do some damage to a teetering head that isn't at flight rpm.
Some pilots, particularly recreational pilots, forget this.
It isn't uncommon, I have had to politely remind (mainly Robbie) pilots to keep the RPM up on a few occasions, though not as often as suggesting they return to pick up their fuel caps.

megan 13th Jun 2020 07:26


Some pilots, particularly recreational pilots, forget this
Lack of awareness can catch us all. Landed at a government owned airfield in a 212 to board pax while still running when a Cessna 172 pulled up alongside and shut down, had the ground handler go tell the pilot his Cessna would get wrecked when we took off. Most upset on receiving the message he was and berated the handler that we were using "his" airfield, the pilot being a local. Was helping a charter Cessna 207 pilot put their aircraft to bed one day and installed the engine blanks for her, only to be told I had done it wrong and was shown how to install so that if forgotten to remove on pre flight on hitting the starter prop rotation would remove them. Never taught that trick before.

ShyTorque 13th Jun 2020 10:41

I had a similar occurrence some years ago, at Rochester airport. Our S-76 (MAUM 11,700 lbs) was being refuelled on the helipad when a light fixed wing taxied up and parked very close by, on the grass. After the two occupants got out it became very obvious from their conversation that they were finishing for the day and one of them was an instructor. I was concerned their aircraft was too close to our helicopter but initially assumed and hoped they were going to tie it down, because I was going to have to lift off to the hover from where I was. However, they began to walk away. I stopped them and pointed out my concern. The answer I got was "frosty". But at least they did go back and tie it down. I could tell that the instructor was quite disgruntled but no harm was done.

At Royal Ascot (a major UK horse racing event for those that aren't familiar) I watched amazed and aghast as a single engined Squirrel hover taxied past me and others and then right over a line of parked helicopters. One of them, a Bell 222, despite having a blade tie down fitted, had its rearwards facing main rotor blade blown down hard onto its tail boom. I saw the tail rotor driveshaft cover dent right in then spring back out. I went over and saw the dent was now hardly visible but I was concerned what was underneath. I found the 222 pilot and told him to come and check his aircraft and showed him what looked to be little more than minor paint damage (I also gave him the registration of the errant Squirrel). I didn't meet up with him again until a few months after the event. He told me that the tailrotor drive shaft had also been badly dented and scored and the aircraft had to be grounded. Had the taken off, he would have been full of passengers. Had the TR drive shaft failed, especially at a congested helicopter parking area, one could only imagine what might have happened.

Another time I watched a pilot (coincidentally again a single Squirrel) hover taxy past me into dispersal, by actually taxying right over the right wing of a running Cessna 150 waiting to exit via the same holding point! The Cessna was blown all over the place and I could see the instructor hanging onto the yoke to prevent the control surfaces hitting their stops. Shortly afterwards I had a short discussion with the Squirrel pilot (who was wearing a nice dark blue jacket with four shiny gold bars bars on the sleeves and a set of wings on his chest) about the lack of wisdom of his actions; he came into our FBO to wait for his passengers. He said it was all ATC's fault because they told him to taxy via that route! Airmanship ZERO. All he had to do was hover taxy past the exit a few metres and allow the Cessna out first. I explained that if a solo student, rather than with an instructor, had been in command of the Cessna, he might not have been experienced enough to keep hold of the controls so well. Had the control surfaces hit their stops, a student might not have had the wisdom or experience to cancel his flight and get the aircraft checked. Again, this might have resulted in a pilot taking off with damaged flying controls. He shrugged his shoulders, didn't seem to get it.

Ascend Charlie 13th Jun 2020 11:24

Country airfield in the 70s. Landed a Huey on the only available fuelling spot (toughened tarmac, underground fuel plug) and got it filled up. We were about to start when an F27 rolled in and parked right beside us - same reasons, tarmac, fuel plug.

Well, we delayed our departure, they unloaded pax, got their refuel, and then sat there as their departure was not for a few hours. We had to go. I talked to the hosties (pilots were inside having a coffee) and asked them to shut the door. They didn't, just stood at the top of the stairs to watch.
OK, crank her up, get to flight RPM, and lift to the hover. Most amused when the hosties' dresses flipped up over their heads. We sat in the hover a little longer than usual, must have been doing hover checks or something, and eventually the girls ran back into their cabin.

Spunk 13th Jun 2020 19:18

B407Pilot megan

So let me get this right: This post is about you being upset with the lack of airmanship and you end your post by saying you didn't give a damn about this guy and his helicopter and right next to this guy while his blade was still spinning? Oh, and don't get me wrong! He definitely lacked airmanship. But you didn't display much airmanship yourself.
I was expecting that kind of reply soon or later. I know myself that it sure enough could have done harm to his aircraft. But, honestly, would you really have waited for his rotor blades to come flying at you and your aircraft or would you have taken the chance to fly away to safety without getting hit.

Two's in

When we see others operating in an unsafe or unsure manner, don't walk away. Take the time out to question and confirm that things are as they seem. It takes tact and diplomacy not to come across as an asshat, but is it better that someone thought you were a busybody but maybe a learning point was made, or wait until you read the accident report and say "hey, I saw that guy doing that..."

A professional aviator is probably someone who shares the learning and experience whenever possible.
I totally agree and next time I'll see this guy I will for sure talk to him and point out what might have happened, but at that point I just wanted to get out of his way.

megan 14th Jun 2020 04:09


honestly, would you really have waited for his rotor blades to come flying at you and your aircraft or would you have taken the chance to fly away to safety without getting hit.
You said

the engine is shut down and out jumps Mr. Pilot himself, the blades still spinning at idle speed
so how in the world are his rotor blades going to come flying at you? It would take little time for them to come to a stop and seeing as they were fitting the ground handling wheels I presume would have been out of your way in short order.

I know myself that it sure enough could have done harm to his aircraft
The mind boggles, a complete and total lack of care and airmanship, one of the me, me millennial brigade we hear so much about?

Spunk 14th Jun 2020 10:55


so how in the world are his rotor blades going to come flying at you? It would take little time for them to come to a stop and seeing as they were fitting the ground handling wheels I presume would have been out of your way in short order.
megan Maybe you didn't get the point I was making in the first place. We have a helicopter with a spinning rotor and no one on the controls. Secondly, he imbalanced the aircraft by uplifting the skids on one side in the rear. So what possibly could have gone wrong? Does that answer your question

so how in the world are his rotor blades going to come flying at you?

Bell_ringer 14th Jun 2020 15:13


Originally Posted by Spunk (Post 10810623)
We have a helicopter with a spinning rotor and no one on the controls. Secondly, he imbalanced the aircraft by uplifting the skids on one side in the rear. So what possibly could have gone wrong? Does that answer your question

You mean freewheeling rotor? you said the engine was off.
It's not smart nor is it good airmanship, but short of them walking into a spinning bit (that would be decelerating regardless), nothing disastrous was going to happen.
Parts are not going to fly off.
The fellow needs a tap on the shoulder and some polite educational words.
Seems like a bit of bad weather in a tea cup.

megan 15th Jun 2020 01:53


he imbalanced the aircraft by uplifting the skids on one side in the rear. So what possibly could have gone wrong? Does that answer your question
Doesn't answer anything I'm afraid. Tell us what could have gone wrong by installing the ground handling wheels with the rotor slowly freewheeling.

SuperF 15th Jun 2020 11:39

My biggest bugbear, doesnít upset me, but is a bit annoying, is light aircraft people, including gliders, that insist on parking right beside JetA1 pumps, and then disappear!

when you go into a public airfield, the fuel hose is only so long, that is as close as I have to park. When on a commercial operation there are time limitations on a lot of what we do, however that can then make you have to taxi very close to other aircraft, what do you do?

if someone is around, then Iím happy to take the time, I will even help them push their aero plane out of the way if I can, but when you park it and leave it, what can I do?

Bell_ringer 15th Jun 2020 12:10


Originally Posted by SuperF (Post 10811387)
My biggest bugbear, doesnít upset me, but is a bit annoying, is light aircraft people, including gliders, that insist on parking right beside JetA1 pumps, and then disappear!

Aah but you are forgetting your place.
It is THEIR airfield which they occasionally let other types use.
Stuckwing drivers often have little clue about the strength of downwash.

Having burned some fuel hovering near the pumps, and eventually plonking it down, the fixed wing instructor with his Aviators and polished epaullettes eventually strolled, at a leisurely pace, to the pumps and nudged the little cessna forward a few meters and scurried off.
Once the control surfaces started flapping like a newborn chick looking for food, he moved with a bit more enthusiasm.
I like to think a lesson was learned that day.
Probably didn't stick :}

Spunk 15th Jun 2020 15:48

Ok, now I see where the misunderstanding takes place.

Yes,the engine was cut-off and immediately after he did that he got out off the helicopter. Maybe now you get an idea at what RPM the (freewheeling) rotor was still spinning when he attached those ground handling wheels. I'm not talking about the very final 5 seconds before the rotor comes to a stopp. I'm talking about almost idling RRPM.

Or maybe it's just me having an excessive imagination...

Rest my case.


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