German Police Squadron firefighting presentation
 

Hi all, long time reader here.

Saw this presentation of the German NRW Police Wing unit fire fighting capabilities. Video is in German, from minute 5 there are a few still shots and minute 8 starts a demo flight.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBNn...LWsl68BSbywqdw

The following details were mentioned during the presentation: Aircraft will be based in Dortmund (425) feet and Düsseldorf (147 feet). Taking off with about 630 lts. of fuel for an endurance of about 2:15. During the first fills only about 500 lts. will be loaded until fuel is burned.

I have no experience with the H145 or knowledge about its performance but the two main things that strike me are:

• The use of what seems a rather small Bambi for the aircraft (mod. 1821 with 820 lts. / 210 US GAL).
• The use of a “Bambi operator” standing on the skids secured with a harness.

Having done a bit of firefighting myself in 350B3’s and 412’s I struggle to find the reasoning why I would have an operator in THAT position. I want to think and believe it was for demo only.

That was a first for me and I keep thinking of what could possible go wrong with such a setup.

Maybe someone in the know could share some info on this, is it going to be part standard procedures? Has someone else seen this done like that in any other part of the world?

Thanks in advance!



This is the Google translation of the description in the video:

05/12/2020 - 10:07

Ministry of the Interior of the State of North Rhine-Westphalia

40217 Düsseldorf (ots)

Minister Reul: "The police and fire brigade work hand in hand and with the latest equipment to protect human lives."

The squadron of the North Rhine-Westphalian police presented their new extinguishing containers today (May 12, 2020). They should help the fire brigade to extinguish forest fires from the air. “The police and fire brigade work hand in hand and with the latest equipment to protect human lives. With the new helicopter equipment, we are now the best-equipped police force in Germany in this area, ”said Minister Herbert Reul at the presentation of the so-called“ Bambi Buckets ”.

The extinguishing containers were purchased last year. These are containers that are attached to the outside of the helicopter and filled with water in order to extinguish fires from the air. The country invested 880,000 euros here, including training for the pilots. The "Bambi Buckets" were used for the first time on April 20 in a forest fire near Gummersbach. “It was literally a baptism of fire and a complete success. Only the interplay of the emergency services - the fire brigade as the command and control team in ground fire fighting, the police with helicopters, water cannons and for cordoning off the area of ​​operation, as well as the forest management with their know-how - has led to the forest fires having a good end. This showed once again that such large assignments only work in a team and have a happy ending, ”says Reul.

The number of vegetation fires, i.e. fires in heath, moor, field and forest, is almost twice as high in hot summers as in normal years. 2020 has been warm and dry so far and may be the third exceptionally dry year in a row. North Rhine-Westphalia has therefore planned, among other things, an additional “forest fire module” for each of the 24 fire services, ten water delivery systems for around 11 million euros and 109 new fire engines for civil protection for around 35 million euros. In addition, training courses for fire departments and forest administrations are held on the phenomenon. “You all know about the climatic changes to which we will have to react in the coming years. The 'Bambi Buckets' are an answer to this challenge, ”said Reul.

The squadron of the North Rhine-Westphalian police (radio call Hummel) flies an average of around 2,000 missions per year across North Rhine-Westphalia and is based at Düsseldorf and Dortmund airports. Since 2017, the entire helicopter fleet has been exchanged for six new Airbus H 145 aircraft for around 65 million euros. The crew of a helicopter consists of two pilots and an operator who operates the "Bambi Buckets" and instructs the pilots.

Questions to:

Ministry of the Interior of the State of North Rhine-Westphalia

Telephone: 0211/8712301

E-mail:

http://www.im.nrw.de/

Original content by: Ministry of the Interior of the State of North Rhine-Westphalia, transmitted by news aktuell

Police and Military are not doing slinging the way we do it in the commercial world.
Pilots are not looking outside, but rather "flying on instruments", controlling the helicopter according to the rear crew members instructions.

I think they will be doing plenty of looking outside while they follow the crewman's verbal directions.

Hate to say it, but unless they get some training, that is going to end in tears. Look at the lateral swing on the bucket as they line up........ Long lining should be done using vertical reference only....unless you are winching from a hover. And why is the guy on the ground sitting on the bucket as they lift up? All things that potentially could cause a problem.

I have to agree with Gordy here, the term “all the gear & no idea” comes to mind. The water could eventually end up on the ground, but not where the fire is.

Consider me unimpressed

Gordy, I think the guy on the bucket is not a guy.

You wouldn’t want a crewman on the skids above a fire of any significance. Must be a military thing (read ‘We’ve always done it that way....)
Irish military 139’s use the same method for fires, though last year according to fire crews on the ground they never hit the target once on any fire they were called to. Though they can’t seem to ground or hover taxi at an international airport and ATC clearing them without doors open and crewmen hanging out. I’m sure the learned Germans might take some outside input if an avenue of communication was opened?

It seems a self sustaining comedy of errors: crewie on the steps guiding the pilot (probably with a 'drop now' instruction) allowing a swing to develop so the pilot follows instructions and fails to damp the swing and so on. Quite why they want 2hr 15min fuel then limit the bucket to 500lt shows further that there's been no input from anyone with Helitak background. Operating a BK117-B2 I'd have 1.5 hours fuel and a 1,000lt bucket, limiting the first pickups to have about 800lt. An hour on task then refuel/relax for 5 minutes.

Another view of the demo here

Well,
I haven't been trained yet, but there are reasons, why things are done this way.
First, yes, you can attach more weight to a H145 - but... cycles go up exponentially with weight.
So you rather do a couple of 750 Liters drops instead of a few 1.5to drops.
Second, Airbus brought up rules about connecting Bambi buckets to the H145.
Even directly attached, the bucket could get into the fenestron - that's why a long line is needed.
The pilots have the bucket in view - with mirror and additional with a camera build in the tailcone.
The Operator on the skid drops the water.
I know, there is a lot of experience in Portugal, Spain, US and Australia - but also some in Germany.
It went a lot of effort in the procedures, working together with squadrons doing Bambi for years, as well as the fire brigades, the forrest department and so on.
We will se, how this develops

FB,

That’s quite an unusual way of bombing, if you’ll accept some constructive criticism?

My first two suggestions would be to get rid of the pilot’s door, and to leave the crewman on the ground to look after it and get your refreshments ready for when you refuel :cool:

The crewie is 90-100kg of talking ballast, and with the door off the pilot can forget looking at a tail mounted camera and minimise glances at the mirror. If you can drop the co-pilot then that's another ~100kg that can be translated into water in the bucket: both together would add a couple of hundred litres.

We all use long line with buckets, generally 50’ to 100’ (20 or 40 metres, roughly) to give good tail clearance plus allow pickups through trees etc, and don’t need another hand to release the water at the right point. With a very little practice you’ll be quite adept at getting the bucket into the pickup point ahead of the helicopter (bit of a flare) and fill whilst flying over the top, then pull the bucket out as you depart. 8 seconds should be all you need.

Finally the difference between 500lt and 1,500lt can make all the difference between controlling a fire and simply doing the same drop every time. Depending on turnaround times and numbers in the daisy chain as well, but the greater the quantity of retardant put on the fire early, the greater chance of getting it under control for the ground firefighters to put it out. 500lt is what we carried in our JetRangers back in the 80s and 90s, but with 5 or more in the daisy chain at least they had an effect. Sheer waste of money to be doing that sort of load with a 145 and multiple crew on board.

Do you have Sacksafoam to inject retardant into the bucket?

John, your input is pearls before sows....
The way they work is that they have some "old, bold pilots" writing the manuals, and they don't have long line experience either.


​​​​​​I spent half of my flying career in the military (as an instructor as well), and worked closely with the police.

They are more looking at how they can engage as many people as possible in a mission, so each one can log "experience" rather than completing the task as efficient as possible.


Not judging, it's the way they have been doing it.

But neither the military nor the police are interested in getting things done as efficiently as possible-as they are not getting paid by the hour of by the task..

I think this is the answer why they are doing the operation this way. Never doubt that any military or police helicopter operation is much more expensive than the same done by civies.

The use of a EC145 for firefightig...is also questionable, but if you don´t have to report to a financial manager....;-) i would also love to do it .

My two cents:
As even Germany is getting dryer and dryer during the years because of the weather (climate change ?) and every year there are more fires in woods and elsewhere there is a louder getting cry for fire fighting helicopters.
But instead the government seting up a fund to reward "highly experienced" civil operators from - they go the way of "we bought all this fancy new equipment for our police forces now let us use it even for things they (the police) have no real knowlwdge of".
This ends in stupid "operational concepts" as you can see in the video.
No doubt Germany should keep founding this modern equipment for the various forces but they again should keep using it as they have done to date and leave fire fighting to the experts.
There are better qualified (and cost effective) helicopters (and pilots) for fire fighting than a police 145.

Maybe FB can comment further on the subject although he is in the german police force and might be prejudiced :O
And maybe the 145 is so complex that you need two pilots concentrating on flying not having time to press a "release button":E

There are companies in Germany with thousands and thousands of hours experience in fire fighting (Agrarflug just to name one of several), but like you said, I also think this is more a political thing so the police can turn around and say "look at all the things we can do"...

From my observation of police and border police pilots, and from being a military instructor, I can tell you that commercial operators do 4 to 5 times the amount of drops in the same time the government is doing 1....

But again, this is a political thing... So we should maybe leave "efficiency" out of the equation.....

But I consider it poor management that they have not approached experienced long line instructors to instruct the pilots.... Long line is nothing you just pick up yourself on the go..

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I do agree with many. I have always been impressed with the HEMS sector in Germany and DRF as well as ADAC's approach, but in this case, surprised would be the word.

Flying Bull, thanks for your valuable insight, I am sure a lot of effort and good will has gone into the project and I wish you all all the best. What is the speed limitation with the operator on the skids?

evil7, last year I read an open letter from Dennis Beese - Agrarflug's CEO (I am unable to find the reference now), as they were approach for help during the fires in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, basically it said that they would love to help but were unable due to the fact that their 412's were in Spain, Portugal and elsewhere in contract precisely for that, firefighting. As well as pointing out the lack of funds allocated for firefighting seasons and plans like the southern neighbors or the US, Australia...

Maybe that's the reason why the police is getting the equipment-because the government does not want to allocate money to have one or more commercial helicopters on "standby"....?


The way the commercial side works is "you can have it if you have the money up front-and if we have availability..."...

Well,
what different responses to the thread.

While John thought about the topic - other just think, they have wisdom and know all about NRW police operation - no - its not military and it is not NPAS

The NRW police squadron was the first police squadron to convert to a two pilot system.
While all other squadrons pointed fingers at the beginning - they now do exact the same....
The NRW police squadron had some incidents - but no accidents for over twenty years - compare that with the other squadrons which think, they are the center of police flying.... (need wood to knock on ;-))

As was pointed out, civilian operators have contracts to follow, in Spain in Portugal i.e. and just can't offer capabilities.
The question would be, how many hours firefighting can you buy for 800.000€ ? Or investing the money to expand the possibilities of the own fleet?
Sure the politicians - after granting the money - use the opportunity to sell themselves to the public ;-)

To the size of the Bambi bucket:
Within the maintenance procedures different parts of the hook system have different load factors to obtain the relevant cycles.
I.e. 300-700kg = 1 // 700-1.000kg = 4 // 1.000-1.200 = 16 // 1.200-1.400kg = 47 and max load = 116!
And evenso the police flying is government funded, money isn't unlimited.
With higher cycles you need to change parts (much) more often, bringing downtime and extra costs - so that's one of the reasons, for the "small" Bambi Bucket.

About doors - there are quite a lot of pages in the FLM covering doors / open doors and removed doors.
With the cockpit doors in the spoiler position and the Cabin door open - up to 120 kts are possible (I guess no one on the skids - that's normally limited to 50 kts).
If you want to remove the cockpit doors without airspeed limitations - you also have to clean the helicopters inside and remove the sliding doors as well as the clamshell-doors.... so not really an option.

The H145 is capable of lifting Bambi Buckets - the procedures differ from the ones with single pilot single engine civil operations.
Even so a second pilot and an operator is extra weight - its only relevant for the first two three turns - thereafter the Bambi bucket can be filled to the numbers, which hold the cycles down ;-)

Why two pilots and an operator?
Cause the normal operation isn't fire fighting and there are also low timers in the cockpit (normally a mix between a young and an experienced pilot is planed)
So - apart from the weight penalty, you have a second pilot monitoring, the chance to swap positions at refuel - and additional an operator, who can give information about distance to obstacles - the higher pitched the voice the more urgent you need to climb ;-)
The operator is releasing the water, not the pilot. He only needs to fly the path.
I will know more after receiving training - unfortunately Corona changed some timetables :-(

How many hrs firefighting do you get for 800.000 €?
200? 150?
So buying equipment and training the crews you pay already is actually saving taxpayers money ;-)

Like. I said... Apples and oranges....

Yes, the police will be less efficient compared to a commercial operator....
But the police helicopter will always be there and available-at no extra "standby fee"...

So it's not really about the money....

Training-wise I must say I now disagree with either police or military in Germany saying they are "very well trained" - this is something I kept hearing from everyone within, and only once I started flying on the commercial side I figured that what we considered "experienced" flying was just a piece of cake for any commercial pilot..
(put aside the specialized flying with nvgs, or firing rockets and stuff...)..


It was not my intention to hijack this thread to bitch and moan about commercial vs governmental pilots....

Well, you can't really judge very well trained - if you don't have a closer insight.

The joint training academy really brings out very good pilots - if you put proper candidates in at first.
Much more training done as would be required for the normal commercial license.

I did some freelancing and have also an insight, what is going on in the civi world.
But that should be another thread, this is about introducing fire fighting into an organisation, which hasn't done it before.
And as far, as I can say, the ones involved did quite a lot of research and met with experienced pilots from the civi world as well as the police world (flying bambis for decades)
The approach at the moment may seem strange for the standard civi operator - but worked out for the first two fires.
We will see, if during further training and fire fighting procedures will be modified.

FB, thanks for the detailed response :ok:

My immediate thought is still to get rid of the crewman, and if the cycle for 1,000lt is the same as for 700lt then reduce fuel to 1.5 hours and constantly lift a tonne from the very first lift. The first drop will have significantly more impact with a 1,000lt than a Jetranger load of only 500lt, and you’ll most likely reduce the overall drops such that your cycles will actually be either the same or less than thimbles full with little real effect. Keep the door on and use the ability to open it in flight as explained.

Having a 50kt speed restriction because of the crewman on the skids is further reasoning to remove him (or her) from the operation; if experienced Helitack pilots were consulted I’m intrigued that this was not queried. Any competent pilot should be able to release the Bambi load while flying a drop pattern; indeed, judging a deliberate swing to throw the load around the curve of a burn is far easier if the pilot does it without having another warm pink body second guessing the move.

Some pretty harsh criticism here of an outfit that are introducing a new capability - frankly it's a good idea to start super safe and then modify the SOPs as you gain experience.

How much would it cost to have a dedicated fire-fighting helicopter on call all through the summer? And how many would you need across Germany?

Compare that to having the capability to re-role your existing police helos that you have already paid for and are available 24/7.

Sure there is a training burden but that will quickly diminish.

And before I get 'flamed' for not knowing about fighting fires, I did 3 years of it in Cyprus back in the 80's with a Sims rainmaker under a Wessex. We used single pilot and a crewman in the cabin and it worked fine.

Just because you can pare crewing to the bone for commercial reasons doesn't make it the best way of operating.

Thanx for the insight, FB,
I only hope that you see the reasoning in John E´s staement about smaler fuel load and no crew(wo)man and bring it to the attention of your team and superiours.
Even with 2,5 hr fuel you would need a bouser for a fire operation - so you could start right away with efficiency. If you left the crewman on ground he could do the sitting on the bambi and you could leave person n° 4 at home :E.

I much apeciate the whole operation and NRW police being the leading force again, but there need to be some adjustments right away, me thinks:

@crab - during the last years the east of Germany has suffered the most of the fires during the dry season. NRW police is right on the other side of the country.
They are just starting this operation, so the other forces will wait and see first - so far for having the police helicopters on stand-by anyway.

By the way - German operators have their aircraft in the south of Europe during fire season because here nobody is willing to pay them. The "poor(er)" south seems to have the budgets!? If Germany had a reasonable budget I am sure the operators would have some aircraft available.

Thanks for all the replies.
I´m sure, there will be a development with more pilots getting training.

To evil7 - Fuel bowser isn't necessary - there are lots of small airstrips around with A1 available - and we have the keys/dongles for most of them ;-)
If the fire will be bigger, I'm sure, the "Bundespolizei" would also bring in a helicopter (and probably a bowser) ;-)

This is not a problem. The empty weight of that bucket is 76 lbs. Depending on the fuel type, we will use the same bucket but attach it direct to the belly on a Huey, where it gets the maximum down wash and have never had a problem. On long lines, we almost have a competition when landing after a cycle of buckets to see if you can land the bucket and get it to stay upright---we then hover descend 150' coiling the line and land right next to it.

I love fire fighting & I talk to as many operators as I can when I’m on a fire as everyone has a method of doing things which is just a bit better than everyone else, alternatively I see it as our collective responsibility to say STOP when we see a catastrophe unfolding.
My 2 cents worth -
- I believe a 150ft longline is a minimum length for AS350 size & above to minimise downwash. Not so critical when battling a running blaze but for spot drops & cleanup it makes a big difference.
- You need to carry as much fuel as you can while lifting the maximum water load you can. With the multi drop buckets available now I fill the AS350B3 to 100% fuel then button off water as I’m lifting to stay within the limits. It’s not uncommon in big timber country or in the hills to burn 10% fuel just getting back to the fire from the fuel truck, & when the water point is 5% fuel from the fire the fuel gauge goes down pretty quick. Once I’m down to 70% fuel I’m lifting the full 1000 litres that the bucket can hold. I know this isn’t a commercially competitive operation, but you can be sure the firies notice when 1 company consistently goes for fuel 30 minutes before everyone else does on a fire. Multiply this by 100’s of cycles on a campaign fire & you lose a lot of bucketing time to fuel ferrying.
- Forget the cycles, with the money that’s being blown on this operation the cost of changing parts is negligible.
- Use the FM limitations to work out what you CAN do, not what you CANNOT do. The FM determines the limits, operate to the limits. If the pilot needs the doors off to see properly then get the doors off & operate the machine to the appropriate limits. There is nothing more dangerous in fighting fires than not being able to see as much as possible, with multiple AC operating low level in a smoky environment in a tight circuit if I had my choice I’d be sitting out on the skid with the crewy so I could see better! If the pilot is not looking at the bucket then it’s just a matter of time until they drag it through the trees, & the trees usually win.
- Only critical people on board the AC, if the pilot can’t fight a fire on his own then the pilot should not be fighting fires.
- No one near the bucket or longline when lifting or landing, this goes for bucketing or utility work longlining. I hate people handling the line, it introduces risk to the ground crew & is unnecessary. With an inexperienced pilot (video example) ensure there is a large enough area that they can safely land with lots of clear area around the fuel truck, longline & helicopter. As they gain experience that area will be able to be reduced. For example when I started a football field seemed too small, now I Place the bucket at the bumper of the truck, coil the longline beside the truck & land at the back of the truck so a couple of rotor diameters beside the truck works fine.
- There is a lot of fire fighting experience in the civilian commercial industry around the world, none of those operators fight fires using the procedures the German Police have developed. This begs the question - Have the police developed a groundbreaking new way of doing things that the rest of the world will follow, or has the rest of world tried all of this before & through hard lessons learnt decided that it’s not the safest or most efficient method?

Are you saying that you fill the fuel to max and then fill the bucket to the full capacity and then do a partial drop in the hover?

Yes. In your scenario you pull to a specific power setting and then release a little bit of water at a time until you establish a positive rate of climb.

That’s correct Aser, on the Bambi multi-drop bucket you need to hold the button in to open the valve so each time you press the button for about 1 second you drop approximately 50 litres of water. Fill to the top then pull to the first limit on the FLI, button off enough water to get the load airborne & away you go. It’s a good technique for large open dip sites but There is a risk when dipping from a small hole which requires a vertical descent/departure that if the bucket malfunctions you’ll be stuck there unable to lift the load, so if the dip site won’t allow you to tip a bit of water out by resting the bucket against a rock or log etc. then don’t fill it to 100%.

The problem I see, is that they aren’t starting super safe. They have created one of the most dangerous fire fighting operations I have seen.

if they want to use a twin with two pilots, I guess, go for it. But that is already an extra person that doesn’t need to be put into the additional risky area of fire fighting. Having the crewy, and hanging outside the helicopter is just crazy.

as someone above said, if the pilot can’t do the job, by themselves then swap pilots. Long lining is no different to IFR, in that it is simply an additional skill to be trained in. Train the pilots, and let them VR the bucket. If they snag a tree with a bucket, the crew member won’t be able to tell the pilots to stop flying or drop the bucket quick enough, and they will drag a helicopter in....

My experience is in the 412 and I could not load full fuel plus 2800lbs of bucket (setting aside performance) without exceeding the max. gross weight, that's why I was surprised. I guess you are talking about a B3 or other "plastic helicopter" :E.
I was always using a bucket restricted to 90 or 80% and ~1.5h of fuel

Regards.

Yes, I’m talking about a H125 “plastic” as you call it.
The 412’s I share the circuit with carry 1500 litres & do a 1.5 hour fuel cycle, I carry 1000 litres & do a 2.5 hour fuel cycle - I love those plastic machines!😉

But we can take ~10 firefighters to the initial attack.
It's always a compromise, that's why have heavy/medium/light helicopters and airplanes.
Anyway, this thread is about the German Police. :8

Regards.
Aser

The idea of "bucketing" was invented in British Columbia, Canada in 1964 by Okanagan Helicopters using a Bell 47G3B1 and 45 gallon fuel drum with a trap door on the bottom.

I have bucketed with a 204, 205, 206, 212, Hughes 500, SK55T, SK58 Piston & T and SK61.

This ain't how ya do it.🙄

I guess that very much depends on the quality of your crewman - if they are any good they will tell you before the bucket gets snagged and help you manoeuvre to prevent it happening in the first place. Plus they are an extra set of eyes in what is often a poor visibility and sometimes very busy operation.

Might want to check your facts there "Old Dog". This photo was taken in April 1957 at the Redding airport and is currently on display at North-Ops, the command center for fires in Northern California and further North. The pilot is Burt Train who formed Redding Air Service that month as a fire fighting company, We are still in business today doing the same thing. I am sure we did not "invent" bucketing either.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....67892be5a4.jpg