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-   -   Boeing FARA (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/630050-boeing-fara.html)

noneofyourbusiness 29th Feb 2020 07:43


Originally Posted by CTR (Post 10698440)
The hidden cards in this FARA competition are political influence and the military need to maintain the engineering capability of three helicopter manufacturers.

Having recently developed new aircraft, both Sikorsky and Bell both have strong engineering departments capable of clean sheet designs.

Sustaining engineering is far from being able to design a new aircraft from scratch. It has been over a quarter century since Boeing engineering partnered with Sikorsky on the Comanche, and with Bell on the Osprey. Forty five years have past since Boeing (actually Hughes) designed the Apache on their own.

If next month Boeing Vertol does not win the opportunity to design and build a FARA prototype aircraft, I don’t see their future as very promising.

Connecticut is a solidly blue state, so there is no political reason for the administration to put work there. Mark Esper is from the swing state of Pennsylvania. If Sikorsky does not win a contract, their future is not very bright, note their commercial sales suck. The Army seems to want best product and value, so I would discount politics at the Army level.

CTR 29th Feb 2020 11:21


Originally Posted by noneofyourbusiness
; The Army seems to want best product and value, so I would discount politics at the Army level.

NOYB,

Sadly, I believe that statement has never been less true.

Historical note: The selection of Bell over Kaman to build what was to become the UH-1 “Huey” was made by a political appointee with no relevant experience.

noneofyourbusiness 29th Feb 2020 12:25

Historically I agree with you and DOD contracts, you just never know. The Army likes Sikorsky, but this time feels different. Maybe they are disillusioned with X2 technology. We shall see. Trump could sure use Pennsylvania this fall. This time, I don't see politics at the Army level, although it could occur at a higher level.

OnePerRev 2nd Mar 2020 21:53

Politics in this sort of thing are largely emotional, good for here as a rumor. They also come into play on DOD budget appropriation discussions, and kill or don't kill a program. Politics don't mean much on downselect. For example on "Schedule", a company funded prototype schedule means far less than demonstrated performance on a funded program. Yes, that means Earned Value. You could research the GAO reports to determine actual programs and a thing called Schedule Performance Index. Risk Management Metrics are also reported, and can demonstrate quantitatively what a new technology risk looks like and a company's historical success at addressing them. Politics will no doubt challenge whatever result comes, but data will no doubt confirm the decisions.

noneofyourbusiness 2nd Mar 2020 22:23

Assessing risk for an X2 platform, as an example, different people will arrive at different answers. Don't pretend it is a science. Earned value tracks program status, basically tracks whether the program is ahead of, or behind schedule, and ahead of, or behind spending. The Secretary of Defense has overruled the desires of the services before, and politics will be a factor in contract awards, no matter how even handed the Army is. They will never say they gave Boeing a contract because they wish to carry Pennsylvania. They will say something like they want to preserve an industrial base, or they will say Boeing had the lowest risk, and so on.

chopper2004 3rd Mar 2020 15:17

Boeing: FARA


SansAnhedral 3rd Mar 2020 15:50


Originally Posted by chopper2004 (Post 10701657)

(Checks calendar)

Today isn't 1 April.

Wow. As shown that's.....not going to work.

noneofyourbusiness 3rd Mar 2020 16:05

The tail rotor looks low enough it is a safety hazard. Pusher prop close to the ground, if someone forgets to de-clutch, would be a hazard. No doubt it will perform well. I would choose the Bell design for the enclosed tail rotor, but who knows what DOD will fund. At this link, the picture shows the low tail and pusher prop, this will kill someone, at some point. Boeing: FARA

noneofyourbusiness 4th Mar 2020 13:29

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenth.../#677116aa1143

This article discusses the politics of contract awards and cancellations this year, including cancelling Chinook.

noneofyourbusiness 4th Mar 2020 13:34

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine....n-helo-concept

"One example is the main rotor system. That technology was first built and tested during the YUH-61 Vertol helicopter competition, he noted."

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Vertol_YUH-61

"While Sikorsky chose a fully articulated rotor head with elastomeric bearings, Boeing Vertol chose a rigid main rotor design, based upon technology supplied by MBB, which was partnered with Boeing Vertol at the time."

Lonewolf_50 4th Mar 2020 13:59

@noyb
I am trying to see how a 48 year old rotor design is relevant to this conversation.
The state of the art for rotor head systems (hubs, blades, yokes, grips, etc) has advanced considerably since then.
As an aside: I hope that Chinook does not get cancelled. (There's a related article running about vis a vis the French considering Chinook for their heavy lift ...)

noneofyourbusiness 4th Mar 2020 14:58

@Lonewolf, That at first appears to be a strange quote out of Boeing, but then I remember often the goal is to put the military customer at ease: This isn't new, (even if it is all new), therefore our proposal is low risk.
I hate to see the Chinook go, it has provided outstanding service to the Army in Afghanistan.

Lonewolf_50 4th Mar 2020 19:16


Originally Posted by noneofyourbusiness (Post 10702554)
@Lonewolf, That at first appears to be a strange quote out of Boeing, but then I remember often the goal is to put the military customer at ease: This isn't new, (even if it is all new), therefore our proposal is low risk.

Ah, got it, soap sales. :O


JohnDixson 5th Mar 2020 11:04

Any information out there re tip speeds for the Bell and Boeing FARA solutions?

The Sultan 26th Mar 2020 01:24

Sikorsky and Bell selected for FARA next phase and fly off.

CTR 26th Mar 2020 11:20

Three years to FARA First Flight
 
Hopefully the US Army realizes they are better off making this race a marathon versus a sprint, and add a year or two to the development schedule.

Especially since this competition is supposed to be for a near production aircraft

SplineDrive 26th Mar 2020 12:58

Things are not looking good for Boeing’s helicopter division.

SansAnhedral 26th Mar 2020 13:12


Originally Posted by SplineDrive (Post 10728857)
Things are not looking good for Boeing

FTFY

Bring on the bailouts.

Commando Cody 28th Mar 2020 04:38


Originally Posted by CTR (Post 10728731)
Hopefully the US Army realizes they are better off making this race a marathon versus a sprint, and add a year or two to the development schedule.

Especially since this competition is supposed to be for a near production aircraft

OTOH, taking as long as we do drives up costs makes planning uncertain and puts programs in serious risk of cancellation. Aside from other fiefdoms vying for another program's money for their own, there's political reality. FARA is intended to around 2028. That's 10 years after FARA was initiated and 19 years after FVL began. That's three Presidential and five Congressional elections away from today. A lot of the champions of the program now won't be around when it's time to pay the bills, and taking too long opens the door for too much political theater. ("I pledge to stop this wasteful killing machine that's ripping food from the mouths of disadvantaged [insert subject of pandering here]"!).

It didn't use to be this way. Take the F-14: RFP: 1968; Contract Award: 1969; First Flight: 1970;. IOC: 1973; First Deployment: 1974. The F-15 didn't take that much longer. Where have we gone wrong since then?

Evil Twin 28th Mar 2020 06:35


Originally Posted by Commando Cody (Post 10730684)
It didn't use to be this way. Take the F-14: RFP: 1968; Contract Award: 1969; First Flight: 1970;. IOC: 1973; First Deployment: 1974. The F-15 didn't take that much longer. Where have we gone wrong since then?

That's easy. Too many faces in the financial feeding trough.


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