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-   -   Polish HEMS EC135 almost losing it on landing (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/629631-polish-hems-ec135-almost-losing-landing.html)

Sidestick_n_Rudder 10th Feb 2020 17:54

Polish HEMS EC135 almost losing it on landing
 

topik22 10th Feb 2020 18:30


Originally Posted by Sidestick_n_Rudder (Post 10684541)


Great pilot job with recovery...but what is wrong with Holly fenestron and Airbus H135?

Flying Bull 10th Feb 2020 19:03

Nothing wrong with the helicopter
looks like a downwind approach and turning into wind in the high hover.
Fenestron dont like wind from some angles - lots of pedal movement necessary to do it smoothly.
would better have flown a turn with speed, still, he got away with it and has a story to tell and others can learn

muermel 10th Feb 2020 20:06

If that was yesterday or today and the windspeeds in Poland were anywere near what we had in Germany, no wonder he nearly lost it. That fenestron and fin offers a huge surface for crosswinds. If he was even downwind in these winds, he's lucky he didn't crash it.

Hot and Hi 10th Feb 2020 20:46


Originally Posted by muermel (Post 10684652)
If that was yesterday or today and the windspeeds in Poland were anywere near what we had in Germany, no wonder he nearly lost it. That fenestron and fin offers a huge surface for crosswinds. If he was even downwind in these winds, he's lucky he didn't crash it.

In the beginning somebody taught me to approach into the wind. I suppose that even holds true if the wind is very strong?

topik22 10th Feb 2020 20:49

Approach was with 250-260 heading wind from 230 at 15 kt ... The video is from mirror so to make it real You should see it also in mirror...

Hot and Hi 10th Feb 2020 20:58


Originally Posted by topik22 (Post 10684688)
Approach was with 250-260 heading wind from 230 at 15 kt ... The video is from mirror so to make it real You should see it also in mirror...

I would consider this straight into the wind. So what is wrong with the anti torque device (did somebody ask this question already?)

aa777888 10th Feb 2020 21:12

Not sure which way the wind was blowing, but it sure looks like a classic case of http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...ar/ac90-95.pdf, albeit with things spinning in the EU direction instead of the US direction.

Great recovery.

Autonomous Collectiv 10th Feb 2020 21:35


Originally Posted by aa777888 (Post 10684700)
Not sure which way the wind was blowing, but it sure looks like a classic case of http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...ar/ac90-95.pdf, albeit with things spinning in the EU direction instead of the US direction.

Great recovery.

The 135 rotates in the conventional way as does the 145 i.e. anti-clockwise, NOT the same as other Airbus Helicopter product. I have had to reverse it down taxiways or completely sideways in strong winds.

crunchingnumbers 10th Feb 2020 22:30

Someone with a video camera on every flight
 
Interesting footage and no assumptions made here as I have no idea of the circumstances. An ops director once told me "Assume that the authorities, Chief Pilot, Director of Ops and Safety Director are watching every take off and every landing". With social media it is so very true. Every 'boring' or 'routine' flight, is a good flight.

aa777888 11th Feb 2020 00:55


Originally Posted by Autonomous Collectiv (Post 10684717)
The 135 rotates in the conventional way as does the 145 i.e. anti-clockwise, NOT the same as other Airbus Helicopter product. I have had to reverse it down taxiways or completely sideways in strong winds.

Well that's damn interesting. How do we account for the left yaw, then?

Hot and Hi 11th Feb 2020 04:50


Originally Posted by aa777888 (Post 10684800)
Well that's damn interesting. How do we account for the left yaw, then?

Mirror image inverts apparent direction of yaw.

Flying Bull 11th Feb 2020 06:38


Originally Posted by topik22 (Post 10684688)
Approach was with 250-260 heading wind from 230 at 15 kt ... The video is from mirror so to make it real You should see it also in mirror...

so approach into wind, passing the vehicles, then turning downwind for the landing?
with 15 knots of wind?
Manageable - but you have to anticipate that wind from about 30-45 degree out of centerline, regardless if it is from the front or back, might give some wobble due to disturbed airflow around the fenestron.
No way to hurry through an outside landing-
Proper assessment of the landing site, how to approach and how to depart later shouldn’t be rushed. As you can see here, instead of landing and helping time will be wasted for paperwork (luckily only)

aa777888 11th Feb 2020 11:39


Originally Posted by Hot and Hi (Post 10684851)
Mirror image inverts apparent direction of yaw.

I'm such a dolt! Of course, thank you! :}

Jetscream 32 11th Feb 2020 13:59

Big DC windbreak
 
That mahoosive distribution centre opposite would I suspect create some interesting dynamics and that coupled with little bit of fenestron stall - looks like it induced a little sphincter twitch..... still good recovery and fly away to calm the nerves.... remember this happening in a gazelle in Germany many moons ago - never seen an airtrooper run so fast 🤣🤣

[email protected] 11th Feb 2020 14:22

Fenestron stall doesn't exist.

Jetscream 32 11th Feb 2020 17:20


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10685214)
Fenestron stall doesn't exist.

Glad that you seem to have better knowledge than the AAIB - they seem to think it existed and so did we 89-95 - BAOR / NI / Op Granby

https://assets.publishing.service.go...TURP_01-92.pdf

Flying Bull 11th Feb 2020 19:58


Originally Posted by Jetscream 32 (Post 10685331)
Glad that you seem to have better knowledge than the AAIB - they seem to think it existed and so did we 89-95 - BAOR / NI / Op Granby

https://assets.publishing.service.go...TURP_01-92.pdf

very old report and still, there is no fenestron stall
just inappropriate Pedal movement
with Fenestron you have - non linear - longer travel

Robbo Jock 11th Feb 2020 20:21

I've had a couple of vinos, probably missed something, but where are people getting wind speed and direction from that video?

[email protected] 11th Feb 2020 20:46


Glad that you seem to have better knowledge than the AAIB - they seem to think it existed and so did we 89-95 - BAOR / NI / Op Granby
Yes the same information was widespread in the UK Mil and I was flying the Gazelle at Shawbury during that period but was never convinced about the theory.

The whole construct of Fenestron Stall was demolished when Aerospatiale demonstrated recovery from in excess of 120 deg/sec left yaw with full right pedal and it stopped perfectly (albeit with the little red Tq light flashing).

It was later understood that Fenestrons have different handling characteristics to conventional TRs and need prompt and sometimes large pedal movements to control undemanded yaw where the pilot has got behind the curve regarding actual pedal position compared with required pedal position,


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