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Maybe I missed it earlier, but was this flight being conducted under pure Part 91, or was it a Part 135 operation?
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Originally Posted by Spooky 2
(Post 10673860)
Maybe I missed it earlier, but was this flight being conducted under pure Part 91, or was it a Part 135 operation?
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10673097)
Would this be a part 135 operation? Or is there some part 91 'cost sharing' scheme that may have been used to skirt the regs? This seems to be a recurring theme in these small aircraft charter crashes.
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Originally Posted by ApolloHeli
(Post 10673633)
Just to add to Bravo73's comments, in many helicopters, airspeed indicators aren't very useful below about 20 - 30kts and certainly won't work when drifting sideways or backwards, so there is very little to inform you of whether you are drifting and if so, in which direction. GPS track/groundspeed may help but is influenced by wind so is not really that helpful unless you know the wind accurately. There is a recent example of a trained Search & Rescue crew in the UK who attempted the exact same recovery mentioned in the article (hover, and climb vertically until clear of terrain or VMC), and despite their training and experience, only managed to get away after unintentionally rotating through 370° while they climbed. Here's the report so you can read about the hovering in IMC incident in more depth if you wish: https://assets.publishing.service.go...MCGR_09-19.pdf
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Originally Posted by obgraham
(Post 10673843)
Juan Browne, on the "blancolirio" channel on youtube, has a very clear and factual discussion on the issue of SVFR into IMC conditions in a helicopter. Leaves out the conjecture and bs.
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NTSB B-Roll video with a good overview of the wreckage.
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The New York Post has a picture taken by a man on a mountain bike 200 feet from the crash site ....... (quote) ......“Out of the fog came a helicopter and it slammed into the mountainside about 200 feet from where we were standing,” said the man, who asked to remain anonymous. “We were close enough that we could feel the air from the propellers. There was a huge fireball,” he said. “One of the helicopter doors landed about 10 to 15 feet away from us. Helicopter parts were flying everywhere. There was very little left of the helicopter,” the witness added. https://nypost.com/2020/01/28/pictur...-ball-of-fire/ https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....426adf8278.jpg |
Originally Posted by Arnie Madsen
(Post 10673907)
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The New York Post has a picture taken by a man on a mountain bike 200 feet from the crash site ....... Random comments that may provide info or insight: - LA Sheriff helicopters are based at Long Beach (KLGB) and at Pomona/Brackett (KPOC). LAPD's helo base is just north of downtown LA. The "no fly" decisions were based on weather at their bases, which are distant from the crash site and a totally different weather pattern . No question visibility at the crash site was marginal. - My (possibly incorrect) understanding is rotary wing SVFR differs from fixed wing. In controlled airspace (KBUR, KVNY) 1sm visibility is not required (FAR 91.157); simply clear of clouds. The crash site was in Class G airspace. This is basic VFR, and rotary wing requirement is clear of clouds and operating at a low enough airspeed to avoid terrain and other aircraft (FAR 91.155). - The comments from experts sounds like the pilot was very qualified and the S76 has a good safety record with a lot of reliability and redundancy. One "stretch" possibility- something happened inflight that forced a descent into the fog (smoke in cockpit, medical incapacitation, etc). But tragic get-there-itis seems like the leading speculation. |
Originally Posted by kenish
(Post 10673929)
A few comments that may provide info or insight:
- LA Sheriff helicopters are based at Long Beach (KLGB) and at Pomona/Brackett (KPOC). LAPD's helo base is just north of downtown LA. The "no fly" decisions were based on weather at their bases, which are distant from the crash site and a totally different weather pattern . No question visibility at the crash site was marginal. - My (possibly incorrect) understanding is rotary wing SVFR differs from fixed wing. In controlled airspace (KBUR, KVNY) 1sm visibility is not required (FAR 91.157); simply clear of clouds. The crash site was in Class G airspace. This is basic VFR, and rotary wing requirement is clear of clouds and operating at a low enough airspeed to avoid terrain and other aircraft (FAR 91.155). - The comments from experts sounds like the pilot was very qualified and the S76 has a good safety record with a lot of reliability and redundancy. One "stretch" possibility- something happened inflight that forced a descent into the fog (smoke in cockpit, medical incapacitation, etc). But tragic get-there-itis seems like the leading speculation. |
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Interesting to note impact scene from the NTSB video posted by Airbubba ..... the main rotor blades appear to be at the initial impact site and the remainder of the fuselage bounced and landed a bit farther away ...... could that indicate inverted flight at impact ?? . https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e63513a61a.jpg . |
Originally Posted by malabo
(Post 10672978)
https://nypost.com/2020/01/27/kobe-b...ed-as-victims/
Pilot and remaining passengers named. Lots of IMC talk, but as others have mentioned that would have gotten you safely from departure airport to some arrival airport with an approach, not the destination - may as well drive. Two pilots, maybe for the crew-discipline to turn around before losing control, but then you'd be pushing it pretty hard, like SAR hard. I too am puzzled at the speed, like the 109 in New York a while back. I also don't know the background of the pilot - if he had flown pipeline/powerline patrol with a Robbie in the mountains it would be helpful background, or fires with an Astar in heavy smoke, or SAR like we saw in the short video of the highway following helicopter in the UK. Turn left in deteriorating conditions at the bottom of a valley when sitting solo right seat in a S76, hmm, and doing it at anything over 60 knots, again, hope for more insight into this. Rich guys die in helicopters, we read about it in this forum all the time. |
Originally Posted by Search&Rescue
(Post 10673964)
I agree with Crab@ and share also your opinion Malabo that they were cruising very fast at low level... a sad story...
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Having studied that drone video, although I see what I think is the tail pylon, lying separately from the main impact wreckage, I couldn't see any tail rotor parts.
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Originally Posted by sprag47
(Post 10673971)
Or climbed into overcast to get on top, became disoriented, loss of control and wound up in a dive into the ground...would explain high impact speed.
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Originally Posted by Search&Rescue
(Post 10674009)
As Malabo mentioned, the fast cruise before the 180 degree turn is a factor for sure... The last maneuver is a mystery... because an intentional climb through the clouds is nothing special for a well trained IFR pilot... But as somebody mentioned earlier... the recency and the recurrent training in the simulator might save your day in situations like this...
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Originally Posted by kenish
(Post 10673929)
...
- My (possibly incorrect) understanding is rotary wing SVFR differs from fixed wing. In controlled airspace (KBUR, KVNY) 1sm visibility is not required (FAR 91.157); simply clear of clouds. The crash site was in Class G airspace. This is basic VFR, and rotary wing requirement is clear of clouds and operating at a low enough airspeed to avoid terrain and other aircraft (FAR 91.155). ... |
Crash Site
Yesterday's NTSB drone seems to have been launched from a segment of MTB trail overlooking the crash site on a lower segment of MTB trail which seems to be Suspected site on Google Earth (screenshot won't upload).
The site is close to the bottom of a drainage and the direction of scars is northerly over a spur. Steep slopes to the north and south surrounding a drainage to the west. |
Originally Posted by JimEli
(Post 10674092)
I believe you're incorrect on Class G (per amendment in 2014).
Quote the "2014" amendment if I'm wrong and I'll stand corrected. Class G is ungoverned airspace. |
Originally Posted by sprag47
(Post 10674102)
No, you're incorrect. Check the FAR...clear of clouds, no min visibility for helicopters in Class G.
Quote the "2014" amendment if I'm wrong and I'll stand corrected. Class G is ungoverned airspace. I've never heard it referred to as "ungoverned." |
Originally Posted by JimEli
(Post 10674106)
Helicopter Air Ambulance, Commercial Helicopter, and Part 91 Helicopter Operations; Correction. A Rule bythe FAA 7/15/2014.
I've never heard it referred to as "ungoverned." Apparently I stand corrected. My apologies...I retired after 30 yrs of pro helicopter flying in 2013. Guess I'll STFU. |
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