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Originally Posted by 212man
(Post 10658983)
Exactly - bite your tongue/count to ten and then transmit concisely and professionally and then bring any grievance up later by phone.
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The controller stated she was ‘shaken up’ which, if accurate, leads me to think that Blackpool is where her ATC career stops |
Originally Posted by Tom Bangla
(Post 10659690)
Do you have any idea how much fuel is burned by counting to 10?
To answer your question, counting to 10 on a typical single will burn around 1 lbs of A1 or half a litre. Not worth losing your license over, |
Originally Posted by Tom Bangla
(Post 10659690)
Do you have any idea how much fuel is burned by counting to 10?
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Posing with a shotgun and bottle of fizz in front of an uber just isn't as instagramable :}
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
(Post 10659745)
Posing with a shotgun and bottle of fizz in front of an uber just isn't as instagramable :}
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Originally Posted by Helibabe1
(Post 10659562)
Correct! Lived every day of it by his side, as have a lot of others. I cannot comment specifically and so I wont be.
You’re also commenting specifically on this event despite you saying your not going to..... |
Originally Posted by cattletruck
(Post 10659702)
This is a truly awful statement that is unqualified and based on ignorance and a sense of self aggrandisement. I'm familiar with Joel's business and he is truly a remarkable chap who has hard won the privileges he now enjoys. I wouldn't be surprised if Joel has made similar clangers along his own career path. Punishing people with their livelihood because they didn't satisfy you on that day is not how society works - no wonder she's 'shaken up'.
Having read the original news item I was interested to read the opinions of the professionals here, so no axe to grind either way, but that comment about the ATC really stood out as a cheap shot. |
Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10659278)
You do know you don't always need permission to enter an ATZ right?
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I have no knowledge of any of the people involved, but this story seems a great illustration of how - in the age of online 'journalism' 'and social media - what seems to be true almost always Trumps (intended) what is true. In this context, in this country, it's surely simply never a good idea to post an image of yourself in front of your helicopter holding a gun and a bottle of champagne. I say 'in this country' because I think the image would connote something quite different in the U.S.
There, you might expect: "There's a successful guy, enjoying the fruits of his success to the full! Good on ya, buddy!" Here it's: "What a massive d*ckhead. If he ever steps out of line, I'm calling the authorities." Compound this with allowing it to be known that you own an Aston Martin and a motorbike and having yourself recorded saying: "I'm in a helicopter here that costs £550 an hour, okay..." and your situation is pretty irredeemable, whatever the facts of the case and however much of a great guy you really are. |
Originally Posted by Helibabe1
(Post 10659309)
There’s two sides to consider with this story guys.. it’s not all it seems
JTobias is a personal helicopter pilot friend of mine and anybody who knows him, knows how utterly professional he is in the air and (1)most pilots will never obtain the experience he already has. The articles do not portray the knowledgeable, skillful, generous and charitable man (2)we all know. His personal success is unrelated and nobody’s business but he is undisputably professional there too and any suggestion otherwise is ludicrous. His silence is merely because of the regulatory procedure pending as I am sure you can appreciate, that is his main priority and concern. The case covers what was a 15-20 sec agitated incident with a controller (3)which we’ve all had at one time or another, and by no means describes the professionalism he exhibits normally. He has had no problem whatsoever apologising and admitting what he did was out of character and wrong, but it happened. End of. However, you should also understand that there was an unreported and significant run up to the ‘rant’ being sensationalised in the press, which inevitably lead to the nature of the call. There was absolutely no confliction with other aircraft either.. Blackpool isn’t exactly Gatwick! The controller stated she was ‘shaken up’ which, if accurate, leads me to think that Blackpool is where her ATC career stops, and maybe the real world of ATC may be too stressful for her to cope with. (4)She should try a bird-strike in a helicopter! (5)This is nothing more than a ‘speeding ticket and a ticking off’ by a copper in the air.. and if you saw the size of the infringement in inches you’d be shocked! But that doesn’t sell papers…! 1. A bold statement on a Professional Helicopter pilot forum. Isn’t he a private pilot? 2. Most of us on this forum don’t know him 3. I can pretty much guarantee the vast majority on this forum don’t argue with ATC. Ive never once had reason to in over 25yrs of flying. 4. So tell us the bird strike in a helicopter story. I bet a lot of us here have had one. Some of us more than we like to remember, and we’re all still here to tell the tale. 5. If it was nothing more than a ‘ticking off’ then there wouldn’t be a fine and a loss of his hard earned pilots licence, albeit possibly only temporary. I get the feeling that you may be more than just a ‘friend’ of JTobias. One minute you’re a friend, the next you write as if you’re a partner and have first hand knowledge of this occurrence. Or maybe you’re JTobias pretending to be Helibabe1? :hmm: Anyway, lets hope the licence gets reinstated and he can continue to fly his helicopter. Have a great day. :ok: |
Originally Posted by Gustosomerset
(Post 10659878)
I have no knowledge of any of the people involved, but this story seems a great illustration of how - in the age of online 'journalism' 'and social media - what seems to be true almost always Trumps (intended) what is true. In this context, in this country, it's surely simply never a good idea to post an image of yourself in front of your helicopter holding a gun and a bottle of champagne. I say 'in this country' because I think the image would connote something quite different in the U.S.
There, you might expect: "There's a successful guy, enjoying the fruits of his success to the full! Good on ya, buddy!" Here it's: "What a massive d*ckhead. If he ever steps out of line, I'm calling the authorities." Compound this with allowing it to be known that you own an Aston Martin and a motorbike and having yourself recorded saying: "I'm in a helicopter here that costs £550 an hour, okay..." and your situation is pretty irredeemable, whatever the facts of the case and however much of a great guy you really are. |
The only thing you could have added was if he’d said “Do you know who I am?” |
Originally Posted by visibility3miles
(Post 10659641)
315B
My comment on the champagne and helicopter was meant as humor, not to imply he actually drank before flying. Clearly it is a "Look at me!" photo intended to show off his hobbies and achievements. The photo was stolen from his private account but merely showed a fun corporate event for pilots at a clay pigeon shoot, whereby he won the competition. Lots of pilots flew in that day and the champagne was a token gesture as he is pretty much tee-total and he certainly would never go hunting let alone shoot an animal! |
Originally Posted by jumpseater
(Post 10659800)
So you’ve not heard the recordings like you said you had.
You’re also commenting specifically on this event despite you saying your not going to..... |
Originally Posted by Helibabe1
(Post 10660012)
I’ve said I’m not commenting specifically on the recording as there is a regulatory procedure pending in the next few days.. precisely why JTobias isn’t commenting himself. He is FULLY aware of my comments and he knows I have first hand experience of the matter concerning him, as do the entire team of helicopter pilots who are fully supporting him online and in person of which I am part of in my own right as a heli pilot since 2009. The newspapers don’t show the 10 mins leading up to the comments made and he is not disputing what he did was wrong. The fine wasn’t for the radio call, it was for the infringement. The priority now is to get the license reinstated forthwith as his flying capability is without question exceptional.
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Originally Posted by Helibabe1
(Post 10660005)
what a ridiculous comment.. on that basis, nearly ALL photographs on social media including Facebook and Instagram are “Look at me” photos. And why can’t he post photos of a nice day out? Do you? I certainly do.
The photo was stolen from his private account but merely showed a fun corporate event for pilots at a clay pigeon shoot, whereby he won the competition. Lots of pilots flew in that day and the champagne was a token gesture as he is pretty much tee-total and he certainly would never go hunting let alone shoot an animal! And if it was, doesn't say a lot for a cybersecurity specialist...:} |
Originally Posted by Helibabe1
(Post 10660005)
what a ridiculous comment.. on that basis, nearly ALL photographs on social media including Facebook and Instagram are “Look at me” photos. And why can’t he post photos of a nice day out? Do you? I certainly do.
The photo was stolen from his private account but merely showed a fun corporate event for pilots at a clay pigeon shoot, whereby he won the competition. Lots of pilots flew in that day and the champagne was a token gesture as he is pretty much tee-total and he certainly would never go hunting let alone shoot an animal! |
Originally Posted by Nige321
(Post 10660025)
If it was private it couldn't have been stolen, could it.
And if it was, doesn't say a lot for a cybersecurity specialist...:} |
Okay Helibabe so we don’t know about the previous 10 mins leading to the clash and as you say he agrees that he was out of order.
I agree that the CAA should be investigating this as knowingly infringing airspace is poor practice and professionalism. Would you have done the same thing in the same circumstances prior to this fallout? |
Originally Posted by helimutt
(Post 10660070)
Once again, for someone who is only a friend, you seem to know an awful lot about him. If the photo was off facebook or instagram then that isn't a 'private account'. Unless you know even more about that subject? I'm beginning to think you're JT himself. :)
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What a fine mess
So it seems a PPl(H) infringed an ATZ 'by inches' but was reported by another, local, pilot because he had had a rant at the local controller. Amazingly, if true, this wasted county court time when thousands of serious cases such as rape are being logistically delayed The wonderful press totally misreport it as a fine for a rant. This thread then disintegrates into insinuations about alcohol and relationships between poster and pilot. Great entertainment chaps but nothing to do with reality. Reminds me of a Friday night, holding to cross the Gatwick active, when I told my passenger what I though of the various commercial fixed wings being given precedence before realising I had a sticky transmit button. Never repeated. |
Originally Posted by Helibabe1
(Post 10660005)
The photo was stolen from his private account ....
Or maybe really, secretly wanted everyone to see the spoils of his success? So maybe getting himself into the national press with a modest fine so that his successes could be aired nationally was excellent value publicity for him.... More and more curious |
From his company website: "When Joel isn’t in his office, he can be found up in the sky, being a passionate pilot of fixed wing planes and flying his very own helicopter." Again, it's the little things that convey so much. The champagne, the gun, the addition of "his very own." ....
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Originally Posted by Gustosomerset
(Post 10660323)
From his company website: "When Joel isn’t in his office, he can be found up in the sky, being a passionate pilot of fixed wing planes and flying his very own helicopter." Again, it's the little things that convey so much. The champagne, the gun, the addition of "his very own." ....
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When I was still a teenager I once said something like "thanks for letting us wait" when reading back a take-off clearance for our rented Cessna after waiting for a couple of airliners to land. My father (also a long-time rated pilot) just said "if you're that upset you shouldn't fly". I think of that (almost) every time I feel like complaining to ATC on the radio and bite my lips.
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I can’t condone rants/ unprofessional RT under any circumstance. However, the situation at Blackpool this last year has been intolerable and not pleasant for anyone. So much so I’m done with operating out the place for “pleasure” flying for the time being. Blackpool Approach frequency controls all ground and air movements and can be extremely congested and frustrating, especially with imminent daily airport closures (45 mins at a time for controller breaks) this leads to everyone departing and arriving at the same time in utter chaos. Hopefully those closures have now finished, but last time I checked no end date was in sight.
The airport used to be brilliant, not so these days. Poor, rude and expensive service with regards to multiple aspects of operating from here. (Not directly at the ATC). But without hearing the details of the pilot-controller communication it’s really not too far fetched to imagine a scenario where an otherwise level headed individual could be easily aggravated and stressed by the normal daily comings and goings at EGNH. |
Originally Posted by Helibabe1
(Post 10660252)
What possible relevance does my friendship have on this topic? My opening sentence told you I was a personal friend - AS ARE LOTS OF OTHER PILOTS - and my original message was in support of him. It therefore stands to reason that I know a lot about him, as he does of me and many other friends, and if that wasnt the case I wouldnt bother commenting at all. What problem do you have with that? Stick to to the topic and stop trying to make it my thread.
This is PPRuNe. You're welcome |
Sounds like there were radio issues. Either the initial transmissions were not received or were incomplete. One source states that he called three times and was acknowledged then another says that he was only acknowledged on the third transmission. Making a radio transmission does not mean that your transmission has been received. You may be over transmitted by another aircraft, your radio may not be operating correctly or the controller simply may miss your transmission or be coordinating with other agencies.
Patience and airmanship are required in these situations. This pilot demonstrated neither and placed himself and other aircraft in conflict. The rant is clearly unacceptable as is entering the ATZ. |
If you can't afford it then don't fly. But I have a sneaking sympathy. Back learning to fly at Dublin Airport in the eighties. I was frequently asked to hold, Dunsoghly Castle or Dunboyne. After forty minutes idly orbiting. I half considered declaring a financial emergency. 'I've plenty of fuel but the bank account is critically depleted.' But then again I had an overdraft and a maxed out credit card long before it was popular.
He was foolish. |
Without knowing all the facts, it does however seem that undue weight might have been given to the exchange of rtf transmissions in the decision to prosecute for the ATZ infringement. It really does beg the question as to whether, in terms of transparency and fairness, prosecutorial decision making and action should be taken out of the hands of the CAA. I would be much more sanguine if such decisions and actions was with the DPP. The Glen Stewart case still resonates with me.
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his flying capability is without question exceptional |
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10660577)
must be a real ace, have never ever heard of anyone being rated as "exceptional". Would have thought this episode proves he's anything but "exceptional", as most of us are (not exceptional).
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Typical prune thread, buncho know it all's slagging off. Will somebody please post the outcome of this incident when it's resolved?
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When we contact ATC we have no clue how much the Controller is dealing with. Radio, Phone, Planning clearances etc. Placing the controller under further pressure without justification (and the only legitimate justification is if your safety is compromised) is just plain bad CRM at its best and at its worst could lead to a serious safety outcome for other parties.
In this context the CAA are absolutely correct to prosecute and make an example of poor behaviour like this. I am sure Mr T is a nice guy, great pilot etc but I also feel sure given his profile he probably feels a little ashamed of letting himself down, and so he should! ATC are there to assist and support our activities and we should recognise there attention is often spread very thin. All the people I had the pleasure to fly with, the quality I admire the most is calmness. I need more of that too. |
the CAA are absolutely correct to prosecute and make an example of poor behaviour like this |
A bit of perspective....
After an 11 hour flight landed at Vnukovo, Moscow. Right turn off the active, round the airline apron and back to the threshold to cross and taxi to VNO3. Held at the crossing for 1 hour 15 mins whilst ATC gave 29 consecutive landing clearances without a single crossing or take off! Finally got a crossing clearance but no way would they cancel the red stop bars. What do you do? Now that is sh1t controlling. And I don't think I have ever used HF in Africa without calling 5 times before getting a reply. Just saying. |
Originally Posted by Helibabe1
(Post 10660012)
I’ve said I’m not commenting specifically on the recording as there is a regulatory procedure pending in the next few days.. precisely why JTobias isn’t commenting himself. He is FULLY aware of my comments and he knows I have first hand experience of the matter concerning him, as do the entire team of helicopter pilots who are fully supporting him online and in person of which I am part of in my own right as a heli pilot since 2009. The newspapers don’t show the 10 mins leading up to the comments made and he is not disputing what he did was wrong. The fine wasn’t for the radio call, it was for the infringement. The priority now is to get the license reinstated forthwith as his flying capability is without question exceptional.
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Homonculus, you rather miss the point, which is; If we all argued with ATC every time we felt delayed or our needs not been immediately met, imagine the chaos in the skies. Its all well and good trying to justify the unjustifiable but as the old acid test continues to give...when we climb in an Airbus/Boeing, we don't expect the Captain to start arguing with ATC. State of mind, Safety, Efficiency, Distraction and all the other hooded horsemen of the Apocalypse coalesce. Whatever the detail of the prosecution, I doubt My T will get himself in this situation again and its good that it is here on PPRUINE cos there isn't, nor there should be, any excuse for behaving like this!
Anything else is just hot air and moaning. |
Originally Posted by Helibabe1
(Post 10660012)
The priority now is to get the license reinstated forthwith as his flying capability is without question exceptional.
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