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-   -   Why bother with EASA? (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/624261-why-bother-easa.html)

HeliHJ 5th Aug 2019 05:52

Why bother with EASA?
 
Recently been to a flying school in Canada and have learnt you can walk through the door with ZERO hours on a helicopter, do 100hrs plus ONE written exam and have yourself a CPL.
Why are the standards so different? Are Canadian pilots better than us here in the UK? Are we better than them?
Why do EASA put us through far more stringent requirements?



paco 5th Aug 2019 06:01

One reason is that the Canadians (and the FAA) know you will get further training later in your career. EASA don't assume that and want you to know it all before you start. I don't have a big problem with that, but the implementation is the real problem - in fact it it an international joke. The ICAO limit is 150 hours, but Canada does 100 to stop people going to the US. And after all that, Canadian training (and examining) is better, having been through both systems. I know of at least two schools who get their students through the CPL checkride at 80 hours and fill in the rest with something more useful, like mountain flying or slinging. Their students are much more industry ready.

There are one or two schools in the UK who match up to them, but not many.

The rule is, if you don't need EASA don't do it.

Which school did you go to?

SASless 5th Aug 2019 12:02

The basic difference is the amount of pure simple frustrating bureaucracy in the UK and EASA systems as compared to the Canadian and American system.
Also...the FAA does not have to pay its own way....as we see aviation as part of the national infrastructure and support it with Tax money from the Federal Budget.

RVDT 5th Aug 2019 17:01


Tax money from the Federal Budget
I think you may find that the money comes from an excise tax on aviation.

It is a huge pot and the Federal Gummint would really like to get their mits on it for other uses but are not allowed to.

A breakdown here.

In EASA land they just "nickel and dime you to death".

The FAA AATF is forecast at 16.3 billion for FY 2019.

HeliHJ 5th Aug 2019 17:49

It still baffles me. I’ve just done my 14 ATPL exams, soon to finish hour building and then finally the CPL course, so will have at least 185hrs and still have no hope getting a job!
Is it “easy” to convert EASA to a FAA license?

GoodGrief 5th Aug 2019 19:54

The licence conversion is easy. Getting a work permit for the USA is impossible.200 hours TT don't help on either side of the pond or anywhere on the planet.

roblawson91 7th Aug 2019 16:09

In answer to the title of this post. You bother with EASA if you want a job in Europe. If you can get a Canadian working holiday visa (under 30) the license conversion is about 4000 dollars (Canadian). That's what I'd be doing if I hadn't already used my visas...

HeliMannUK 8th Aug 2019 15:12


Originally Posted by HeliHJ (Post 10537466)
It still baffles me. I’ve just done my 14 ATPL exams, soon to finish hour building and then finally the CPL course, so will have at least 185hrs and still have no hope getting a job!
Is it “easy” to convert EASA to a FAA license?

It looks like there is a instructor shortage at the moment. Get your FI and you will probably find it easier to get work, worked for me (I also think it improves your pilot skills).

Also CHC (& possibly Bristows) have been employing ab-initios in the last 6 months.

ApolloHeli 8th Aug 2019 22:05


Originally Posted by HeliMannUK (Post 10540167)
Also CHC (& possibly Bristows) have been employing ab-initios in the last 6 months.

Does "ab initio" mean fresh out of CPL(H) training or no licence at all?

GKaplan 9th Aug 2019 10:59


Originally Posted by ApolloHeli (Post 10540463)
Does "ab initio" mean fresh out of CPL(H) training or no licence at all?

That's CPL + IR, without an hour more than what's required to get those.

RichiRich 7th Sep 2019 17:07

My question to this subject is: can I do EASA IR training in Canada for example?

paco 7th Sep 2019 19:36

You can get a Canadian IR and transfer it. Training as required if I'm not mistaken.

Phil

RichiRich 7th Sep 2019 20:06


Originally Posted by paco (Post 10564375)
You can get a Canadian IR and transfer it. Training as required if I'm not mistaken.

Phil

What is the price in Canada?

hueyracer 8th Sep 2019 05:58


It looks like there is a instructor shortage at the moment. Get your FI and you will probably find it easier to get work, worked for me (I also think it improves your pilot skills).
That must be the same myth than the "pilot shortage" I keep hearing about..

I am an 8000 hour pilot with all FI/TRI/TRE privileges, and have been looking for a job all over Europe for a year now..... Nothing....


Unless you are a 500 hours pilot with FI and a cabri rating, willing to work 6 days a week for 1000 Euro a month, that is..

jeepys 8th Sep 2019 06:30

Hueyracer,
have you tried NPAS, Babcock or SAS in the U.K?
They have numerous positions and have had for some while.

hueyracer 8th Sep 2019 07:42

Thanks, I have contacted pretty much every operator that has advertised for positions in the past 10 months...

As I am residing in Germany, I would only be available for any touring positions (or at least positions where I can fly home every now and then).

Due to my wife's job, moving is not an option (unfortunately).

But it did not even get to that point.. I hardly received and feedback to the initial application...

(But I must also say that I do jot hold ratings on R22/44 or cabris, which seem to be the main air frames companies looking for an FI are using these days)...

Bellrider 8th Sep 2019 10:52

There is a huge lack of pilots with suitable character........that‘s the fact!
Having 500-1000h and not a CV with 10 changes in 5 Years career, every operator ( including air rescue) in Europe will wellcome you with open arms

Robbiee 8th Sep 2019 17:20


Originally Posted by hueyracer (Post 10564628)
That must be the same myth than the "pilot shortage" I keep hearing about..

I am an 8000 hour pilot with all FI/TRI/TRE privileges, and have been looking for a job all over Europe for a year now..... Nothing....


Unless you are a 500 hours pilot with FI and a cabri rating, willing to work 6 days a week for 1000 Euro a month, that is..

You should come to the States. Here its the opposite, where 8,000 hour pilots are more scarce and 500 hour cfis are a dime a dozen!

hueyracer 8th Sep 2019 17:49

Thought about it.... Just could not figure out how to get a work permit...
And my wife said she wasn't OK with me marrying a US girl in order to get one...
Lol

Robbiee 8th Sep 2019 18:38


Originally Posted by hueyracer (Post 10565047)
Thought about it.... Just could not figure out how to get a work permit...
And my wife said she wasn't OK with me marrying a US girl in order to get one...
Lol

If our pilot shortage is real, then I would think it'd be easy to find a company over here willing to sponsor you for a work permit?

,...if our pilot shortage is real?

hueyracer 9th Sep 2019 10:39

Don't want to open a can of worms here...

But was told by a guy from Canada how "spoilt and arrogant" I was for asking about being "sponsored" a work permit.....

He said it would show how pilots from outside Canada would "expect" to be treated like princesses.... And that-if I wanted to work on Canada-I should go over there and get myself a work permit and a Canadian license before even thinking about applying for a job....

(exaggerating his words a bit for dramatic effect).


But basically, I had contacted several US companies before...the majority does not even reply to emails, and the few who did said there was nothing they could do about the work permit (I read this as "we need pilots, but we are not willing to do all the paperwork involved in helping you getting a work permit)..

I understand that the companies would need to show proof that they have tried to hire local pilots, but failed to find some...?

paco 9th Sep 2019 12:57

That about sums it up - the trouble is that some ads are worded so tightly that only one person can fill it - they are wise to that.

Phil

Robbiee 9th Sep 2019 14:16


Originally Posted by hueyracer (Post 10565524)
Don't want to open a can of worms here...

But was told by a guy from Canada how "spoilt and arrogant" I was for asking about being "sponsored" a work permit.....

He said it would show how pilots from outside Canada would "expect" to be treated like princesses.... And that-if I wanted to work on Canada-I should go over there and get myself a work permit and a Canadian license before even thinking about applying for a job....

(exaggerating his words a bit for dramatic effect).


But basically, I had contacted several US companies before...the majority does not even reply to emails, and the few who did said there was nothing they could do about the work permit (I read this as "we need pilots, but we are not willing to do all the paperwork involved in helping you getting a work permit)..

I understand that the companies would need to show proof that they have tried to hire local pilots, but failed to find some...?

That's why I still truely believe the pilot shortage is a load of ****! Sure, some companies need pilots, but they're not willing to lift a finger (or take two seconds to reply to an email/text/phone call) to do anything about it.

GO AIRLINES!

hueyracer 9th Sep 2019 17:06

I hear you, and I think alike....

I am for sure thinking about ditching my helicopter work and getting myself a fixed wing atp next year..

As much as I love flying helicopters (that's what I am good at-not my words)..... But I have spoken to so many companies now who all claim to be looking for pilots... Not a single one is willing to cross train or even support new pilots anyhow.... While at the same time the salaries are dropping lower and lower...

(Speaking about Utility work in Africa and Europe here..)

Same again 9th Sep 2019 18:51

Have you told the operators who you are applying to just how good you are? Maybe you are just not selling yourself. Or perhaps you don't have the type ratings, visas and flexibility?

There is a shortage of qualified and experience helicopter pilots world wide but operators can only recruit pilots with the 'right to work' in the operators country. Some countries offer work visas to younger people, some countries encourage immigration of skilled workers and some countries offer temporary work visas. But if the government of the country want to restrict immigration then they make it very difficult (if not impossible) for employers to recruit foreign nationals. Some countries governments that are flexible charge extortionate amounts from the operator for the issue of a visa. So don't necessarily blame the operator.

If you have the right to work in the country, the appropriate licence, qualifications and experience and they need pilots then chances are you will get a job these days. But you also need to be flexible and have a good attitude....

Robbiee 9th Sep 2019 19:42


Originally Posted by Same again (Post 10565893)
Have you told the operators who you are applying to just how good you are? Maybe you are just not selling yourself. Or perhaps you don't have the type ratings, visas and flexibility?

There is a shortage of qualified and experience helicopter pilots world wide but operators can only recruit pilots with the 'right to work' in the operators country. Some countries offer work visas to younger people, some countries encourage immigration of skilled workers and some countries offer temporary work visas. But if the government of the country want to restrict immigration then they make it very difficult (if not impossible) for employers to recruit foreign nationals. Some countries governments that are flexible charge extortionate amounts from the operator for the issue of a visa. So don't necessarily blame the operator.

If you have the right to work in the country, the appropriate licence, qualifications and experience and they need pilots then chances are you will get a job these days. But you also need to be flexible and have a good attitude....

I live in California where all the highly skilled people (with all the good jobs) are from Asia and India, so I know we take foreigners!

Bellrider 9th Sep 2019 20:25


Originally Posted by Same again (Post 10565893)
have a good attitude....

that‘s the main problem in the pilots world.....70% of a good pilot makes his attitude, only 30% flying skills. That‘s one of the most important facts i‘ve learnd in CRM .....
just think about it, if you wonder that nobody wants you.......

malabo 9th Sep 2019 20:28

Any employer just wants you to be able to do the job. Safely. Can you roll, stand and tap a fuel drum? Can you cut a couple of wires from the pump and spin the ends so you can plug into your running 206 after finding out you’re missing a canon plug? Can you night sling in the Arctic without getting all pious about a cloud and temperature? I’ve trained and tested pilots from all over the world. Training in some countries is better quality and more comprehensive than others. Some leave out off-level landings, autos, tail-rotor malfunctions and failures, confined areas, carts. EASA pilots were no better than US, Australian, or Canadian for all the extra exams they had to write. US no better than Canadian for their 150 hr cpl vs 100. Canadians in general always knew where the tail rotor was, and in a confined never confused the statistical probability of an engine failure with the certainty of a crash if you hit a wire or tree on the way in or out. Pilot shortages are engineered by regulation to protect domestic markets. EASA protects Europe, CASA Australia. Try work in Brazil, or Russia and see how welcome you are. Paco has seen both sides (btw Paco, your beloved 206 steed GBFH fell over backwards on a bad landing last month) and has pointed out how Canadian schools tailor a product for the market, and the regulator is mostly on board, except for maybe raising the bar to 125 hrs soon. I’ve seen some pretty good vertical reference and utility pilots come out of EASA with skills that would be welcome in Canada, but why expect that to be easier than a Canadian pilot going to Europe?

hueyracer 10th Sep 2019 05:23


Pilot shortages are engineered by regulation to protect domestic markets. EASA protects Europe, CASA Australia
Absolutely... Throw in the flight schools trying to make a living (hence "pushing" the message of "pilot shortage" in order to get more students), and here we are..


I also agree about the character part.... But how do you tell that from an email or a Klick on the "klick here to apply" button?



Like you said, it's all about work permits and visa...

If a country needs pilots, and can't find enough locals, the companies need to approach the government to allow visa to be given to "skilled workers"...


I think pilots had been on the skilled workers list in the US for a few years, but were taken off around 2000?

paco 10th Sep 2019 06:09

" Paco, your beloved 206 steed GBFH fell over backwards on a bad landing last month)"

Where did that happen? :)

malabo 10th Sep 2019 14:44


Paco: Where did that happen?
CADORS From the description I'd guess about 60nm NNW of Whistler.

paco 10th Sep 2019 15:25

Thanks! That machine sure gets around....

Mars 11th Sep 2019 09:04

It would appear that a certain member of EASA staff is following politicians' lead in peddling disinformation (fake news) at industry meetings.

What happened to peer group reviews of planned presentations by Authority members so that completely unfounded statements can be eliminated or corrected.

These actions call into question the integrity and professionalism of all members of working groups and he should apologise for presenting such a biased and flawed view.

Mars

212man 11th Sep 2019 10:38


Originally Posted by Mars (Post 10567173)
It would appear that a certain member of EASA staff is following politicians' lead in peddling disinformation (fake news) at industry meetings.

What happened to peer group reviews of planned presentations by Authority members so that completely unfounded statements can be eliminated or corrected.

These actions call into question the integrity and professionalism of all members of working groups and he should apologise for presenting such a biased and flawed view.

Mars

key words that might lead to an online search showing this?


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