That's interesting thanks. So he needed the time saved due to the weather conditions.

Why train for both?

simple, winches have been known to fail.

sorry bitches, slide down the hill to safety, my coily cord retractor broke and I cant save you now. Buh bye, going back to base now.

I wonder what the MMI gauge looked like

Any journo/blogger that uses the word "insane" to describe anything should get taken away by men in grey jackets to a dark site and never returned :ugh:

There is a third way that works too you know.....using your logic....why not train for all three?

Think those are part of the wirestrike kit and not standard skids.

Weather can change rapidly in the mountains so it is a fair call but you can't see any poor weather in the videos other than a little cloud at the top - if he was that concerned he could have just winched the casualty straight off the hill rather than deploying 3 people first.

There would clearly have been some time delay while the guys he dropped off assessed and prepared the casualtty and it may be that the weather deterioration happened then and he had to make a rapid extraction, although that isn't obvious from the videos at all. I'm sure they are very well versed in dealing with the vagaries of hill fog in the Alps.

Good use of the wirestrike kit as an ice axe:ok:

Well, I´m not a mountain flyer but I know, it´s a standard practise.
Advantages are
- Quick(er) than whinching
- less power required compared to winching
- no winch required, no cycles on the winch, no risk of breaking it, snaggig the cable, getting it hot, having a fuse pop and all the other stuff which make a winch u/s
risks
- toching snow (probably a rock underneath) with the blades with all, what will happen then....

Personally I think, with experience, and it looks, he has a lot, and he can actually see the blades, I wouldn´t question his decision, bearing in mind it was an actual rescue and patches were already visible, so weather was also an issue to consider.
Guess it takes much more time to do all this with a winch and would also take much more concentration to keep the bird stationary witch all the white stuff around.

My 2 C worth ;-)

budget constraints. Dont you realise what one of these things cost per hour?

Look how quickly they get the casualty off by winch - it really isn't a long process - it would have taken longer for them to walk to the pickup point from the casualty.

Having spent many years in heli S&R, the only comments I would commend are those from Same again and John Eacott's 'nit picking'!

The winch went fast and was just one lift -
cause everything was prepared - watch the whole clip, he droped the team off, went off and came back to collect team and casulty

My coworker that does ski patrol said they would just get dropped off some where close and easily accessible. Hike over, strap the guy to a toboggan, belay him down to a flat area where he can be safely and easily transported out.

yes, but for the drop off, the time wasn't so important so he could have winched them down.

Then when it came to the recovery it would have only been two lifts instead of one - still pretty quick and hardly slower than having to do the nose-in landing and then winch the casualty (who would still have been already prepared).

As we keep saying, the flying was very competent - it is just the decision making and risk vs reward balance that is being debated.

Cornish Jack - Mountain SAR or Cornish coastal SAR? Just asking due to your handle.

GHH,

Gee....being so new to this game and all.....I suppose not......why don't you enlighten us will you?

If the Winch decides to pack it up and go on holiday....and the patient is in a place the helicopter cannot land or do a nose in or one skid touching landing.....and the Ground Team suggests there is no real safe way to get your guy off the mountain or to a safe landing spot.....how would you do it?

Do remember the reason you are out there....that being getting the victim and the ground crew off the mountain safe and sound!

Do you just throw your fixed line over the side and carry on or use your winch in a fixed length mode (if you can) and just get cracking without any training in the procedure?

​​​​​​​

:ugh:

Only a few hundred but I've never stopped to count - a simple double strop lift takes seconds to complete, only the operating crew are going to use complete harnesses.

that is what happened since 2 of the 3 the guys who had stepped out stepped back in during the nose in, leaving the winchman/paramedic with the casualty, both of whom were then winched in. I guess the guy who was with the casualty when the team arrived was a fellow skier who continued down the mountain under his own steam.

So - one-skid-on delivery of 3 guys (winchman plus doctor? and assistant?) then nose-in recovery of doctor and assistant then winch recovery of winchman and casualty.

The one-skid-on delivery was quick and effective but the nose-in recovery could easily have been done by winching and taken the same time - the final recovery of winchman and casualty was exactly right.

Again, there is nothing unsafe about the ‘nose-in’ evolution which has been used for many, many years. crab@ I suspect you may have overlooked the backpacks which were part of the load taken on board prior to the double lift, but that would have added at least another hoist cycle to the mix. But it didn’t because an option to winching was used which was/is well practiced and safe. Those who query the OEI capability should be aware that the 117/145 has oodles of power and is unlikely to have been operated outside such requirements.

Another view from a similar op back 5-6 years ago, made more demanding by use of the left door. Same opinion from me about transitioning with the winch weight still outside, though!

Memory serves me that the Austrian Police (the Austria without Kangaroo's) pioneered high mountain rescues using fixed line transfers......so I guess there are multiple right answers to the same problem.

They do it using mirrors and not long line style bubble windows too I am thinking.

My understanding is that these guys have a very detailed understanding of the geometry at the front of this type for exactly this kind of op.

Moving before winching is complete? Normal in their patch. They are normally working at altitude and seem to be searching for translational lift at every opportunity. Have a look at some of their online videos and you'll see they are routinely winching out on approach and doing a very quick insertion as though it were a longline. Similar but in reverse during recoveries.

It's not what is normally done in some other territories but it's not the same conditions either. I've met a few of these guys and listened to their presentations about specific rescues. They present as very professional and they have a niche way of working for the conditions they encounter on their patch.

Another way to look at it....what is their accident rate as compared to other similar operations?

As long as they have found a way that works for them...and they retain an admirable safety record....then they deserve respect.

That they do different sure doesn't make them wrong.

John, no I hadn't missed the backpacks but a First Response Bag doesn't weigh enough to need an extra lift unless you have a very weight limited hoist - the medics are very unlikely to deploy on a steep, snowy slope with a heavy mass on their backs - that is asking for a slip down the hill.

No-one (apart from journos) has said that the nose-in technique is inherently unsafe but it does carry additional risk compared to winching or a side-on skid landing. Antone who has flown mountain rescues will have had to place the aircraft in a less than ideal position where a malfunction could have serious implications but sometimes it is absolutely required to save lives - in this case it wasn't.

Thoroughly agree that the space-walk on the winch in was completely unnecessary.:ok:

The geometry of the skids/nose touching the slope is such that the blade tips will not impact on the upslope as long as it is the same slope angle or less. A competent and capable pilot should have no problem judging the slope and thus carrying out the evolution.

crab@, the narrow skid set on the 117/145 is such that a side-on skid landing is less safe as the slope angle has to be less to ensure tip clearance, plus there is no other fuselage point to give an assurance in the same manner as the skid tips/nose touching as shown in the videos.

Had a chance to talk to those guys and visited Chamonix base recently- they have qute a lot of training and a lot of actual practice, so definitelly proficient in what they do. Agree that nose-in brings quite some risk and if winch is available, might look questionable. But there were other factors affecting risk assesment (weather in particular) and they decided on the best course of action under circumstances.
I was also against such practices, as winch is available, am aware of many incidents/accidents occuring during such attempts, but a well trained/proficient crew can do it quite safely.
Do not underestimate exposure time. Crab, am aware of your winching procedures a little (tried it with 202. Squadron - great time!), but we decided to do it differently as hovering near rocks for ages winching in and out 30 metres of cable or more makes seconds extending to near eternity. And there is a time limit for hovering in RFM for some types.
"Spacewalking" might looks dangerous but our rescuers are aware that it does not really matter if you fall 30 or 300 metres, so we also winch in and out away from rocks as much as possible, thus exposing everybody for minimum time necessary - also falling rocks are often an issue to think of. (those triggered by helicopter and those that might hit us from above)

John - I take your point about nose-in versus lateral but he did something in between for the drop off - just the front of the right skid on the snow - again well flown but if nose in is better, why didn't he do that then?

Hoistop - don't confuse what we did on UK SAR with this operation - we had to winch 95% of the time since a nose-in landing wasn't an option and the larger disc and downwash of the Sea King meant we had to winch higher than you would in a smaller helo.

As for the falling - we tried whenever possible to keep the winchman and casualty as low as possible to the ground - it couldn't always be achieved but I would still rather fall 5 m than 50 m or 500 m. On a snowy slope at low height you at least have a chance of stopping yourself sliding whereas from a greater height you are probably going all the way to the bottom.

Crab - Everything EXCEPT in Cornwall ... that's just my origin! and the 'Jack' is from having operated in all crew positions except gunner and having been a 'Master' :O The concomitance of the "...all trades" phrase is noted - and accepted!:sad:

Northern Norway, late Seventies.

British Army lands his Scout on the snow and shuts it down to talk to various personnel. Whilst engrossed in this Scout slides down the hill into a snowbank.

Lots of radio traffic and OC Scouts fly out. He lands his Scout on the snow, shuts down and commences to bollock said pilot.

Scout slides down the hill into the first Scout.

FED,

I must ask....which Scout were you flying?

I would hope they understand the geometry, especially as this is a pretty standard manoeuvre for the PGHM. My understanding having visited them in the last few years is that this a/c (Chocas 74) has modified skids for this purpose.

Can't comment on the relative advantages of winching vs setting down skid light, but would make the observation that this is common in Chamonix at least.

What I do find interesting is the amount of Social Media coverage this has received. Of course it's comes purely down to outcome as to where this is perceived as positive or negative. Sadly, it would probably go viral in either case(!)...

Yes there is a warning system if you get too close to an object. There is an initial audio warning that sounds like rapid machine gun fire, this is accompanied by the cyclic being snatched from your hands, useful pieces of the main rotor blades then depart the aircraft at varying points around the compass, instantaneous and stupefying vibration may then remove the main rotor gear box from its mounting.

This is an excellent time to consult the Flight Reference Cards under "Actions on being a tool".

Anyone look at the angle between the fwd skid/nose and the forward tip path compared to the angle between the side skid and the side tip path?

Two.....you are being a very naughty boy!:D

High Test Instant Columbian Coffee through one's nostrils is a quick way to wake up!:)

I think I might just start snorting the dry crystals and see how that works!

There's a good series on YouTube:

Mountain Rescue


These guys are GOOD!

(JE)
Was this PC1? ie would that have worked with OEI ? Anyone KNOW?

I agree. It seems to be the same old people from the same Country quick to stick the Knife in.....

How Would You Rate This ?
 

I’m not rotary wing so I have no idea if this is impressive or not, so I thought I would ask the experts. Your assessment appreciated.