PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Rotorheads (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads-23/)
-   -   Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/614822-helicopter-down-outside-leicester-city-football-club.html)

finalchecksplease 28th Oct 2018 14:19

Offshore oil & gas drifting up & back is a big no no, like Industry Insider I've never done a take-off profile like that from an offshore rig / platform in my 20+ years flying offshore oil & gas.
Onshore some aircraft have a vertical profile like that, don't know if the AW169 has that profile in its RFM.

thelad 28th Oct 2018 14:21

Sky news shows day light photos from the air of the burnt out airframe, all chard except a door looking section 7-8 feet away still with paint. Looks like 2 windows, could that be a escape hatch? Never been in a 169.

jeepys 28th Oct 2018 14:24

There was a suggestion that a possible TR failure could have been to blame. In these situations it doesn't really matter what profile you do whilst in the T/O phase. Only a suggestion like I say.

Aucky 28th Oct 2018 14:27


Originally Posted by finalchecksplease (Post 10294644)
Offshore oil & gas drifting up & back is a big no no, like Industry Insider I've never done a take-off profile like that from an offshore rig / platform in my 20+ years flying offshore oil & gas.
Onshore some aircraft have a vertical profile like that, don't know if the AW169 has that profile in its RFM.

This is because offshore profiles aren’t generally PC1, they are PC2 or PC2E and make use of a drop down below the deck edge in the event of an OEI fly away. The AW169 has a number of PC1 profiles suitable for ground based departures factoring obstacles above the take off surface, one of which utilises a very steep rearwards climb up to a maximum allowable TDP of 400ft above the surface which may be used appropriately for a site like a stadium, so long as the critical obstacles don’t exceed 265ft above the take off surface.

2016parks 28th Oct 2018 14:34

I understand that in an incident like this one might well perish from the crash alone. But one might also perish from an ensuing fuel fire. I know that Robertson Fuel Systems, for one, makes fuel tanks that are more crash resistant. The Robertson tanks are available for at least some civil aircraft; I can’t tell from their website if the AW 169 is one of those. Was it available for this aircraft? Anyone here have experience or knowledge as to this type of system and its effect? If you were wealthy and owned a helicopter, would you specify such?

skadi 28th Oct 2018 14:39


Originally Posted by thelad (Post 10294646)
Sky news shows day light photos from the air of the burnt out airframe, all chard expect a door looking section 7-8 feet away still with paint. Looks like 2 windows, could that be a escape hatch? Never been in a 169.

It looks like one of the rear sliding doors...

skadi

industry insider 28th Oct 2018 14:39

Aucky


This is because offshore profiles aren’t generally PC1,
No it’s not, some are PC1. it’s even simpler than that, it’s so that you don’t reverse into the rig and crash.

silverelise 28th Oct 2018 14:41

FWIW I've grabbed an image from Google maps and using the various photos on the news feeds identified the place (point B) where the aircraft came down. They really didn't get very far at all and would have had almost no height to play with even if they had any control. RIP.

http://i.imgur.com/MLgA6ksh.jpg

tistisnot 28th Oct 2018 14:49


Originally Posted by industry insider (Post 10294659)
Aucky



No it’s not, some are PC1. it’s even simpler than that, it’s so that you don’t reverse into the rig and crash.

Well, if we're being pickety ..... he said 'generally' and I have done it from UMI's with no obstructions above deck, but the helideck was smaller than 1D, so there .....

Giboman 28th Oct 2018 14:51

Gear retracted
 
From the video immediately after the crash the gear seems to be up. The gear doors are still closed and there doesn't appear to be significant impact damage. No gear to soften the impact and no resistance to stop it spinning and flipping.

I thought there was I minimum altitude of 500' before transitioning into toward flight in residential/built up areas?

airsound 28th Oct 2018 15:02

If Wikipedia is to be believed, this is the first AW169 accident. Anyone know otherwise?

airsound

Edited to add - just seen a tweet in which Leonardo Helos states just that -

Leonardo Helicopters is ready to support the AAIB with their investigation to determine the cause of this accident. This is the first ever accident involving an AW169 helicopter

ShyTorque 28th Oct 2018 15:47


Originally Posted by Giboman (Post 10294672)
From the video immediately after the crash the gear seems to be up. The gear doors are still closed and there doesn't appear to be significant impact damage. No gear to soften the impact and no resistance to stop it spinning and flipping.

I thought there was I minimum altitude of 500' before transitioning into toward flight in residential/built up areas?

The last sentence is total nonsense. Why did you think that?

heli1 28th Oct 2018 15:56

Well done to "Puma crew member Jim Rowlands" quoted on BBC ,for doing us all a favour by rubbishinghelicopters and speculating on the cause. Hope its worth his seconds of fame.
lets wait for the AAIB professionals please everyone.

OnePerRev 28th Oct 2018 16:13


Originally Posted by 2016parks (Post 10294655)
I understand that in an incident like this one might well perish from the crash alone. But one might also perish from an ensuing fuel fire. I know that Robertson Fuel Systems, for one, makes fuel tanks that are more crash resistant. The Robertson tanks are available for at least some civil aircraft; I can’t tell from their website if the AW 169 is one of those. Was it available for this aircraft? Anyone here have experience or knowledge as to this type of system and its effect? If you were wealthy and owned a helicopter, would you specify such?

You are very correct, and this is not a new observation. US Army (USAAMRL) did a very comprehensive study of aviation crashes particularly in Korean and Vietnam wars, and determined that a significant majority of the deaths were from the heat of the ensuing fire. Crashworthiness standards were created for fuel systems that do not apply to commercial rotorcraft, but have resulted in minimal loss of fuel in aircraft since the late 1970's such as H-60 and later. The movie "BlackHawk Down" would not have been a story if not for such survivability features inherent in the design. Includes for example crash resistant tanks, self-closing connections and valves for fuel systems. Some commercial helicopters include this capability, but it is not without additional cost and weight penalty. Therefore people purchasing VIP helicopters may not really be in tune to the available technology to them, nor the very real importance. I am not aware if such options are available for this model helicopter, probably not. To be sure also, we do not know details of this case, including impact velocity, which can render crashworthy systems ineffective anyway. Again, the statistical reality is that the loss of life was likely due to fire, much as an over water mishap results tragically in death by drowning.

Aucky 28th Oct 2018 16:14


Originally Posted by industry insider (Post 10294659)
No it’s not, some are PC1. it’s even simpler than that, it’s so that you don’t reverse into the rig and crash.

happy to be corrected - I’m not an offshore pilot however my main point was that this type of helipad departure is completely typical of onshore PC1 profiles on most light-medium twins, and the fact it’s not used offshore doesn’t imply a great deal in this context. It’s actually the only approved PC1 profile in the AW169 for a site of this sort with significant obstacles encircling it.

nomorehelosforme 28th Oct 2018 16:15

Is there any reason that there has been no official confirmation of who was on board?

Nige321 28th Oct 2018 16:18


Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme (Post 10294719)
Is there any reason that there has been no official confirmation of who was on board?

Maybe there's several greiving families, here and in the far east, that need to be informed before you are... :ugh:

TeeS 28th Oct 2018 16:23


Originally Posted by heli1 (Post 10294704)
Well done to "Puma crew member Jim Rowlands" quoted on BBC ,for doing us all a favour by rubbishinghelicopters and speculating on the cause. Hope its worth his seconds of fame.
lets wait for the AAIB professionals please everyone.

A "UAV & DRONE TRAINING PROFESSIONAL" according to my quick google search heli1!!

Cheers

TeeS

Crosswind Limits 28th Oct 2018 16:25

I know of two pilots on that particular operation for the owner of Leicester City. From a purely selfish perspective I hope it isn’t them. RIP to those that perished.

212man 28th Oct 2018 16:26


Originally Posted by TeeS (Post 10294732)
A "UAV & DRONE TRAINING PROFESSIONAL" according to my quick google search heli1!!

Cheers

TeeS

A quick look on LinkedIn shows the full details - Ex-RAF Puma/Griphon Crewman then a bunch of other stuff followed after leaving.


All times are GMT. The time now is 00:22.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.