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Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 10056678)
I'm curious what people's understanding of dead mans curve is, and how you might apply a HV chart in an operational context.
From the eye witness account the helicopter was out of control, and the tail boom was chopped off before it hit the ground. Engine failure is still a possibility...the eye witness description might fit a low RRPM situation during an auto-rotational descent. Hope the survivors are on way to recovery and managing to provide any cirtical information just before the accident. Cheers |
Just a thought.
Lets say the pilot flies in gusty/turbulent conditions, orbits for a place to land?! for maybe a ''land as soon as possible'' scenario?!, bleeds off his airspeed inadvertently and ends up in a decent with zero indicated airspeed and tailwind at 7-8 thousand feet Density altitude with a full load of pax..... |
That still shouldn't result in chopping the tail off - if that is what happened.
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Crab,
Indeed, IF that is the case. |
it's possible to chop your tail off in most types
some types you have to try harder tech failures particularly to aero surfaces on the tail can help the pilot acheive tail chop one example is the 365 of our passed friend CF where tail was chopped EC130 has known tail cracking issues to boom and horiz stabilizer very unlikely to be engine although all things are possible |
Everyone is assuming, based on sketchy witness info (we all know how accurate that can be), that there was a tail strike.
Could that have been a secondary effect? Driveshaft failures can also damage the tail can they not? The prelim NTSB report will hopefully contain something more scientific, especially having interviewed the pilot and pax. |
Originally Posted by HughMartin
(Post 10057500)
...Show me the evidence that demonstrates that single engined helicopters have a lower engine failure rate PER INSTALLED ENGINE than multi engines helicopters, excluding intentional precautionary shut-downs .. |
I might win the Lotto and get lucky with the girlfriend and her twin sister too!
Can you add just one more “if” to your conjecture?
Originally Posted by Nubian
(Post 10059779)
Just a thought.
Lets say the pilot flies in gusty/turbulent conditions, orbits for a place to land?! for maybe a ''land as soon as possible'' scenario?!, bleeds off his airspeed inadvertently and ends up in a decent with zero indicated airspeed and tailwind at 7-8 thousand feet Density altitude with a full load of pax..... |
NTSB preliminary report out:
Location: Peach Springs, AZ Accident Number: WPR18FA087 Date & Time: 02/10/2018, 1715 MST Registration: N155GC Aircraft: EUROCOPTER EC130 Injuries: 3 Fatal, 4 Serious Flight Conducted Under: Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter - Non-scheduled - Sightseeing On February 10, 2018, about 1715 mountain standard time, an Airbus Helicopters EC130 B4 helicopter, N155GC, was destroyed when it impacted a canyon wash while on an approach to land at Quartermaster landing zone near Peach Springs, Arizona. The commercial pilot and three passengers sustained serious injuries and three passengers were fatally injured. The airtour flight was operated by Papillon Airways, Inc. under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 136. The helicopter departed Boulder City Municipal Airport, Boulder City, Nevada at 1635 and had intended to land at Quartermaster landing zone, a group of landing pads within Quartermaster canyon. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and a company flight plan had been filed. A review of the recorded radar data showed that the helicopter departed Boulder City and continued on the Green 4 standard helicopter route prescribed in the Grand Canyon West Special Flight Rules Area 50-2. Witnesses reported that as the helicopter neared the vicinity of Quartermaster, they observed it on a flight path consistent with the pilot aligning to make a downriver-wind landing to a pad on the west. The helicopter began to slow after it passed over the river and maintained a southern course as it entered a canyon wash adjacent to the landing pads. While maintaining the same altitude, the helicopter entered a nose-high attitude and then began a left turn toward the Quartermaster landing zone. During the turn, the helicopter transitioned into a nose-low attitude and as it began to face the landing pads it began to slightly drift aft. The helicopter then maneuvered into a nose-level configuration and continued in the left turn. Subsequently, the helicopter made at least two 360° left turn revolutions as it descended into the wash below where it impacted terrain and a postcrash fire ensued. |
WTF is a canyon wash?
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skadi |
crab,
Often referred to as a "dry wash" for obvious reasons. |
Preliminary Repory
What is the report saying, if anything? Maybe the long winded explanations make sense to somebody who is familiar with the area?
The helicopter then maneuvered into a nose-level configuration |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10060383)
I might win the Lotto and get lucky with the girlfriend and her twin sister too!
Can you add just one more “if” to your conjecture? |
Couldn't they just call it a gully?
And what do they mean by a downriver-wind landing? Do they mean he is heading downriver or heading down wind or both? The nose high attitude followed by the turn and then a nose low attitude whilst drifting aft has me imagining some disorientation and then recognition of aft drift which was corrected by shoving the nose forward. Was he in fact affected by brown-out on approach as I had thought earlier? That report hardly clears anything up and, as hot and hi says, isn't brilliantly worded. |
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Having never seen a EC-130....can anyone enlighten me about possible Yaw Control issues at the loading and DA the aircraft was operating at when it crashed?
Does the 130 have similar limitations similar to the Bell 206 series at certain altitudes/wind directions? Two 360 rotations as described does suggest a possible lack of sufficient yaw output or a loss of thrust due to a failure of some kind. I too wonder what the “down river/wind” comment was actually saying. Was the approach down wind? |
WTF is a canyon wash |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10060971)
Having never seen a EC-130....can anyone enlighten me about possible Yaw Control issues at the loading and DA the aircraft was operating at when it crashed?
Does the 130 have similar limitations similar to the Bell 206 series at certain altitudes/wind directions? Two 360 rotations as described does suggest a possible lack of sufficient yaw output or a loss of thrust due to a failure of some kind. I too wonder what the “down river/wind” comment was actually saying. Was the approach down wind? Suggesting that he turned to face up river and into wind. Just my interpretation of it. HTC |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10060971)
Having never seen a EC-130....can anyone enlighten me about possible Yaw Control issues at the loading and DA the aircraft was operating at when it crashed?
Does the 130 have similar limitations similar to the Bell 206 series at certain altitudes/wind directions? Two 360 rotations as described does suggest a possible lack of sufficient yaw output or a loss of thrust due to a failure of some kind. I too wonder what the “down river/wind” comment was actually saying. Was the approach down wind? |
Fenestrons are great but pilots have to understand that they behave slightly differently from a conventional tail rotor.
Some of the anti-torque thrust comes from what has been described as 'lip-lift' where the flow around the duct adds to what is being produced by the fenestron itself - a bit like a coanda effect. When you get a situation where something affects that flow and disrupts the 'lip-lift', the demand for power pedal is suddenly increased to compensate and, if you are not on top of your game (or ahead of the aircraft) you can end up with a left yaw you weren't expecting. There is still more than enough TR authority but it requires you to use a bit more pedal - this can sometimes be masked by the TR linear actuator if you have SAS or AP in yaw. This is where the myth of Fenestron Stall was born - and subsequently disproved by Aerospatiale TPs. It hasn't stalled and you don't have a TR malfunction, you just need to apply more right pedal - perhaps all the way to the stop! This isn't usually a problem but at high power, many pilots are reluctant to use that extra pedal due to the marked Tq spikes (also typical of fenestron equipped aircraft) experienced if you are less than gentle with the yaw input. You can see this effect when you accelerate sideways (or hover crosswind with the wind from the right) - eventually you get to a point where the airflow through the fenestron needs to reverse as you apply lots of left pedal - there is a marked yaw disturbance but you still have full control and as you pass through this, normal feel is resumed. The same happens as you slow down again and that is where the Tq spike can occur, as you push right pedal to re-establish 'normal' flow again. Airbus put out a safety notice a while back emphasising that the thrust from the fenestron vs pedal position wasn't as linear as from a conventional TR but slightly S shaped - for the reasons mentioned above. If the pilot in this case, in gusty winds and manoeuvring to land, experienced what he thought was a TR problem, it might go some way to explaining the result. |
BTW - a gully is defined as a 'water-worn channel' so it will have been created by water and may periodically contain water - how is that different to a wash:)
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Crab,
Your posit is possibly biased with Gaz experience which is only natural. The fenestron on a 130 is near enough identical to that on the 135 albeit a mirror image wrt to direction of rotation. The MGW of the 135 internal is about 450kg greater. When was the last time you heard of issues on a 135 fenestron wrt to controllability? I'm calling - http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...57/323/c3b.png |
RVDT - based on 341 AND 365, both of which exhibit exactly the handling qualities I detail.
Did you not see the Airbus SN then? Edited to add it was Eurocopter Service Letter - 1673-67-04 so its a bit older than I had thought. LMGTFY - http://airbushelicoptersinc.com/imag...elicopters.pdf see particularly para 3 |
Another of the British tourists involved in the crash has died, after 10 days in hospital. RIP.
From the Beeb |
Guys, just my 2 cents--I have flown this route hundreds of times for that company in the EC130
There is no issue with t/r authority in any conditions in the 130, you must mash the pedals harder than other boosted types but you can do most anything in any wind conditions. The weather in the canyon can be very extreme IE: micro bursts, severe up and down drafts, T storms, turbulence etc.. The quartermaster site is a few hundred feet above the river and the pilots are usually very confident of the direction of wind based on a sock above the shade structure for Papillon and other landing traffic etc.. To be all out of sorts on short final to the LZ leads me to think its pilot error or some strange mechanical issue we dont know about yet...!!! The NTSB gives no clues as to what happened The pilot will be the only one who can shed light on what happen...!! In my experience Papillon had excellent MX excellent TRNG during my time.. Only time will tell.... |
As I pointed out, there is no problem with TR authority - it is just the response in some wind conditions that can catch people out.
At High AUM and high power (ie full of pax and in the latter stages of an approach in gusty wind conditions) some pilots might be more reluctant to 'mash' the pedals than others. It may not be a factor in this sad accident but we will have to wait for the full NTSB report to find out. |
A fifth British tourist involved in the crash has now died, after losing her husband four days ago.
BBC article |
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Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli
(Post 10066895)
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I bet somebody wishes they had done that a bit earlier. I’m sure you are right, but they HAVE made what is no doubt a very expensive decision. They could have just ignored the problem. Kudos to Papillon. |
We had a discussion a year or so ago about the absence of crash worthy fuel cells on many helicopters.
If you climb into one without such a safety improvement....who is to blame? Might you become an accident statistic tomorrow....and if you do...whose fault is it you went out in a blaze of glory? |
Didn't Ford have to recall 1.1 million F150 pick ups 7 or 8 years ago because the fuel tanks were faulty and kept bursting into flames?
Manufacturers will produce what they think they can get away with. |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10067708)
Didn't Ford have to recall 1.1 million F150 pick ups 7 or 8 years ago because the fuel tanks were faulty and kept bursting into flames?
Manufacturers will produce what they think they can get away with. |
the recent lawsuit for one paramedic that was awarded 100 million, and the undisclosed award to the second paramedic for their injuries suffered in their crash and fire that killed the pilot, is a huge motivator to do something about the problem. With two survivors remaining and similar lawsuits likely on the horizon, you can bet the bank accounts of airbus and papillon are going to get appreciably smaller again.
Hindsight, I'm personally glad they are taking the steps to modify their aircraft, but who else is? I hope many more follow suit. It really is costly for this kit, but again, look at the lawsuit cost, is it worth the risk? to some yes, to others no. Its tragic that it took another accident to get to this point though. will the marketing brochures for the tour operators start listing the fuel tank status in an effort to gain passenger loads over the competitor?? Will customers start asking about the fuel tanks, shoulder harness', helmets and flame retardant clothing for their flights, or will they still be clueless and naive about the serious nature if something goes for a ****. Most believe they are paying for their safety up front and nobody is putting them at risk right??? I was perplexed the day after this accident though, with the smoke hardly cleared, I was seeing facebook posts from Maverick, claiming awards for their maintenance staff and the best maintenance in the industry. You tell me that wasn't ill timed and a low blow, when they should have been supporting their competitors under the tragic circumstances. It shows it's all about money and nothing else. Im actually surprised that Maverick didn't do an ad, with their maintenance staff sitting around a roaring campfire showing off their framed certificates of excellence. |
I believe I've heard a saying attributed to the Japanese but applicable worldwide:
"Business is War" |
BTW- I'm not endorsing that attitude, just mentioning that it's not unusual nor necessarily unethical, it's just how we are...
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Greyhorizon .... you’re not seriously suggesting pax should dress up in flame retardant gear and wear helmets for a joy ride are you ??!!
On that basis they may as well all pack up shop ..!! |
Originally Posted by nigelh
(Post 10069312)
Greyhorizon .... you’re not seriously suggesting pax should dress up in flame retardant gear and wear helmets for a joy ride are you ??!!
On that basis they may as well all pack up shop ..!! |
Flame Retardant clothing for tourist/corporate/air taxi flights might be a bit of a stretch....crash resistant fuel tanks is not.:ugh:
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