Gyrocopter to Helicopter Some Questions
 

First of I realize that this is a forum for professional pilots but it is also the most active community I have seen related to flying so I hope that you don't mind me asking a few questions even though I am not and have no intention of becoming a professional pilot.

So the story so far...

Recently I finished training for my gyrocopter license and bought myself a Cavalon.

The experience has been a lot of fun and I like the aircraft and will be flying it for at least the next few years I have also developed an interest in light helicopters.

I do have a couple of questions though, primarily related to how difficult they are to fly and how safe they are and some cost related things as well.

Learning to fly the gyrocopter was very straightforward, it took me 10 hours to get a feel for it and after that I lost most of the fear and flying has been quite fun since. Since you're in autorotation the whole time I feel very safe and wind doesn't have much effect on you either like it does in a small plane.

My first question regarding helicopters is safety in case of an engine failure. I have read that on most helicopters you have around 1 second to react after you lose engine power and try to enter autorotation. That seems like an incredibly short time and at this point I can't really imagine seeing the signs of engine failure and reacting to it all within a second. I am sure that training prepares you somewhat for this but still...this is the single biggest concern I have with helicopter flying.

The other thing I'd like to know is how difficult it is to actually learn to fly and how involved day to day flying is.

Compared to learning how to fly a small plane or a gyrocopter how much harder is learning to fly a helicopter ?

The commands do seem to be much more involved.

Also as far as I understand it you can't really take your hands off the commands in a helicopter either.

In a gyrocopter for example once you are in the air you barely need to use the pedals and for most of the flight you can just trim the gyro and it will fly with almost zero effort.

I am asking because if I am taking a 3h trip in a helicopter for example I'd like to know how stressful the flying in itself is.


The last things I'd like to know are related to costs.

I won't ask how much training costs because I know this very much depends on the country.

I am only interested in light and ultra light helicopters, the main reason for this is cost.

I also don't need a helicopter with more than 2 seats, of course having it would be nice but a friend of mine had a 5 seat plane and he says he usually flew with just one passenger and had 3 passengers maybe 5 times in 3 years of owning the plane.

I have looked over a lot of these small helicopters and the only one I dislike outright is the R22 because it's incredibly ugly (in my opinion). I know that sounds stupid but if I am going to be investing that much time and money into this I want to at least like the aircraft.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Damn right, talking two seats G2 all day, so pretty and well designed, if you're a private owner maybe the initial cost is quite a lot, but in the long run you'll save money.. (I don't work for Cabri and never flown one)

For the autorotation it depends on many factors, high or low inertia of the main rotor, to put it in easy terms a "light" rotor system (R22) will have less momentum and slow down faster once power is gone, so less reaction time in the unlikely event of an engine failure.

Unlikely because autorotation is an important part of training but the likelihood of an engine failure is low.

Opposite for a high inertia "heavy' rotor system

Never flown a gyro so can't compare it

Learning is certainly not easy but not impossible, for sure day to day is a factor, if you fly once a week it's gonna take you a loooong time, if you'll make it at all.

Only the right hand is the one that needs to be on the cyclic 97 percent of the flight, in forward flight left hand and even feet can come off if you don't have to make power changes, bigger helicopters are more stable so you can be off the controls for short periods of time but I don't think it's your case
(this is just a general statement to give you an idea, once you become a pilot you'll know when you can take your hands off and when it's better to stay on ie: turbulence, high traffic, low visibility, ecc)

A 3h hour flight from a to b is not very "demanding" if you're a confident and somewhat experienced pilot.
Can actually get boring I find, helicopters were certainly not designed with straight and level flight in mind

I fly both : Helo first and after 30 years in rotor powered i begin to fly the Gyro...rotor auto rotate since 15 years
The most funny is about landing in autorotation with helicopter versus Gyro : . That'is exactly what you do in Gyro : maintain the speed, check your plan of descent, flare just before touch down...No fear about autorotation.

If you fly the Gyro, you fly the Helo EXCEPT for the hovering . That's need more or less time to learn depend the student, the Helo and the instructor...

About the cost : Take care, some ( most of them )"Ultralight" have the price of "certified helicopter" for purchase AND maintain....

Enjoy !

I converted from microlights onto helicopters and had a lot of the same questions at the time. Some answers below..

Engine failure. You have x seconds to react to an engine failure. You need to pull back on the cyclic and start to lower the collective within a couple of seconds on a low inertia rotor (like the R22) or more in a higher inertia rotor (G2 or R44). You have a warner beep when Rotor RPM goes below 90% and that helps focus the mind. Practice and Practice. Engine failure in helicopters is pretty rare though so don't worry too much.

Difficulty. Learning to hover is based around how good you are at noticing very small changes in pitch/attitude and then making very small reactions on the cyclic. I had a pretty good hover sorted within 3-4 hours as was used to attitude changes from flying planes. I would expect transferring from Gyro wouldn't take you very long. The challenge with helicopters is learning all the sloping ground stuff, landing in confined areas stuff, run on landings... its all good fun but there is much more than in learning to fly planes.

Hands off - Correct. If you let go of the controls the helicopter will move one way or another - its an unstable aircraft. Its perfectly comfortable to fly for 2-3 hours though hands on in a R22/44. The cyclic just naturally sits there on your lap and your hands just subconsciously do their thing making very small adjustments.

Cost - If cost is an issue don't fly helicopters. They are expensive things. You should expect to have fixed costs of $10-20k per year on insurance and hanger etc and then for a 2 seater (R22 or G2) around $250-$300 per hour for fuel and maintenance. $550 in a 4 seat R44.

Number of seats - I learned in an R22 and then did my flying in an R44. I flew with 2/3 passengers most of the time. Having the extra seats is very useful. It also comes down to overall weight/amount of fuel you can carry. In a R22 you are very weight limited but an R44 gives you a much greater scope to fully fuel up and stay within limited. Its also a nicer aircraft to fly as the extra rotor inertia makes for safer automation entry and gives a bigger margin of error on the flare, there is more power available for confined area work (vertical ins and outs) and a whole load of other benefits. Learn in a 2 seater and then decide for yourself when you have learned all the other things there are to consider.

Learning to fly helicopters is a blast... i loved every minute of it and the $20k or so cost was so worth it. Enjoy :)

Interesting post and I will comment briefly as others have covered most of the points raised.

I built and flew a benson gyro 1992-99 and enjoyed it immensely but too many friends died due to the lack of understanding of the cg / line of thrust issue which was resolved with the new designs following proper testing such as the one mentioned in Scotland. How did I survive dunno really, but I was very careful about weather and didn’t push the envelope preferring “ panic on Power off “ when things got windy or turbulent, the same adage works with the R22 I believe.

Sold the gyro and Converted my license to PPL-H in 2000 and I did it on an R22 with that low inertia rotor system and to comment on auto rotations they are the same as in any helicopter if you get the entry right and maintain the right attitude / RRpM and practice , practice and keep practicing especially the entry and last 100ft to the ground which in an R22 you only get one chance at! I will say that having flown gyro’s for a few years and done 100’s of landings it does help when putting that R22 onto terra firma as the ground rushing up at you isn’t as scary. Hovering is the best thing you can do with your trousers on once you crack it and it did take me a few hours if I’m honest before I was ok at it and I still get “the Grin “ years later .

I then got the chance to fly a Hughes 300 and it was a lovely machine in autorotation with its relatively high inertia rotor system and being well balanced overall. Nothing like a gyro in auto and again if the entry into auto is right the rest is hard to mess up and I usually manage to put it down without bending anything . I had the good fortune to be taught on both the R22 and H300 by some great instructors and still consider myself to be learning every flight I make .

So if you do decide to learn to fly helicopters find the right instructor for you and don’t be shy in changing if things don’t go well .....it’s your money and in the end your life which is at risk.

Now over the years I have looked over my shoulder at the new gyro’s appearing on the scene such as your Cavalon and the Magni 24c and doing the maths on cost it’s a no brainer for both purchase and especially running costs, as others say if you can’t afford it don’t fly helicopters and the ever true if it flies, floats or f**ks then best rent it. I’ve flown them recently and considering buying one but my only dilemma is that their a bit like flying a fixed wing when your landing and compared to my old Bensen b8mr rather tame in handling with heavy controls and smooth engines.

Whatever you decide to do get good instruction and never be afraid to admit you don’t understand .Most of all enjoy every second of it !

B.G

@xxtoni
Pls send me PM, may have some tips & tricks for you on the subject.

BTW No civil helicopter training in 9A, primary because of restrictive CCAA regulations.

I’m licensed on fixed wing, helicopter and autogyro; all obtained in that order. The fun factor order is slightly different though; helicopter, autogyro then fixed wing. All I’ll say going autogyro to helicopter, is that you really need to keep an eye on that rotor rpm in autorotation - particularly in an R22. I disagree with the comments about private ownership and the Cabri saving you money compared to an R22 in the long run. You can buy a freshly overhauled R22 and do a full overhaul 12 years later, and still only be at the initial purchase price of a G2. Also the R22 insurance will be about two thirds of the cost of the Cabri for a private owner due to the difference in hull value, reducing each year with the depreciating R22 hull. Couple the insurance saving with the lower initial hull cost and add the overhaul costs; I reckon you get to about 18 years before the Cabri perhaps starts to overtake the R22 (although I haven’t added any maintenance costs of a G2 over that time period. I’m guessing the engine would still require an overhaul).

I can’t argue against the G2 in other areas though. Safety, technology, looks and autorotation capability are all considerably better.

Hallo X Toni,

This forum will prove a mine of information for you and generally you'll receive some sound advice on the various types.

I'm a 6000 hour man on the Enstrom series, (coming up to 20k overall) so while you are researching the market, take a good look at the various Enstrom models available. As you are quite properly considering helicopter safely you'll be interested to know that the Enstrom is unique in that there has never been a fatal accident in the UK in 49 years ... an astonishing record. Other items you raised. The Enstrom can be flown 'hands & feet off' for quite long periods due to its electric trim system attached to the cyclic. Another unique feature is the type has a 7 cu feet/65lbs weight dedicated luggage locker. Running costs are a whisker more than the Schweizer 300 and perhaps 30% more than the ubiquitous R22. To get your likely operating costs, just look up what the respective schools are charging. Autorotation is easily the best in the piston market. The 'lower lever' time following a power failure is known as the 'TK Period' In the Enstrom 29/280 Shark series, the figure is 2.3 seconds from 332 rrpm. Other items. Typical cruise speed at 80% power is around 100mph, fuel burn at that setting is 85 lbs per hour, (the type holds 240 lbs) Rate of climb on the C model is a whisker under 1200 fpm. (the more powerful FX is 1425 fpm) Handling on the type is outstanding and factory support and parts supply are superb. Those are the good features. Sadly there are very few type experienced engineers in the UK. If you need more details on that aspect, just PM me. Hope this helps your search, but in the UK the Enstrom type is not the most popular helicopter. The way round that is to talk to an owner who has flown the type for several years. PS. I could teach you to fly. Go careful and enjoy our world of rotary flying. Dennis Kenyon.

It took me 14.5 hours to solo in a Hughes 300C. I flew every day learning to hover. Initially I was terrified of autorotations but after I got my commercial license I began to like them and became quite good at them. I never liked the R22 and never flew in one. My instructor friend said they were a bit twitchy. I love the 300 series and owned a 269B, the less powerful model that preceded the 300C. They look and fly like real helicopters unlike the R22 with its unusual cyclic. The only thing wrong with the 300 series is that they are a bit slow with only 80 mph cruise. Other than that I can't say anything bad about them.

Is there a light helicopter that has a three hour endurance at normal cruise speed?

My 269B had an auxiliary fuel tank that held 19 US gallons for a total of 44 gallons. It had endurance of almost 4 hours at normal cruise.
I never found a long trip in our machine stressful. The longer trips were quite enjoyable but you had to be alert and ready to drop the collective if the engine quit.