Looking at FR24, G-SASX appears to have spent most of this year on Police or Helimed operations out of Lydd

Larger aircraft on Scillies
 

I think the problem with larger aircraft on the route is that of landing at St Mary's. I used to fly the S61 from Penzance and always understood that the gradients on the runways at St Mary's were outside modern limits and the present aircraft were only allowed to operate via grandfather rights. I'd like to know if anyone can confirm or deny that?

The use of helicopters from Lands End airport was never more than a gimmick. Whats the point of paying helicopter prices if there's a fixed wing aircraft operating the same route?

I think at the time (1981?) it was thought the DASH 7 could go anywhere where the Twotter could, but St Mary's then, was found to be out of limits - I think there was one test fight with Brymon. Capt Harry Gee iirc. But they were not happy.

Edit
re DASH 7 performance and ISC

please see thread here for more correct forum

https://www.pprune.org/10423816-post234.html

Thanks

Isles of Scilly
 

Having flown the service for six years from Penzance, having read the submissions from all involved parties, having attended the open meeting in Penzance St Johns hall about the proposed service last year and having seen that in recent weeks services by sea have been suspended due to extreme weather I am convinced that the only way to provide a reliable, year-round passenger and light freight service to the Scillies is with a helicopter from Penzance.

There is no other way to do it.

And what's wrong with using an Islander for instance. A third the cost, less than half the running costs and can fly in much worse weather than the humble helicopter? Carries loads more too. Or for that matter what about a 2nd hand Shorts 360?

Shorts 360 = Flying Wardrobe!
Islander = a few humans and horribly slow.
S61/S92 = 24 pax plus bags and hostie + small runway.
TC, stop promoting planks!!!!!! This is Rotorheads.

BTW, unless you can get a Shorts 360/Small Plank to do CAT-III autolands, the humble helicopter can land & T/O in the same limits as a FW. TC????

DB - c'mon. We're talking additional freight and pax to a third world county here. Most 'stuff' (pax and freight) gets there eventually by flat bottomed boat - easy, cheap and reliable. S92 - WTF? How much is that going to cost each year?? And to achieve what?
Look - air passage to the Scillies is a luxury, nothing more, nothing less.
Islander - £3/week to run. £20/year insurance, £50/yr maintenance and you can throw it away after 10years and get another one.

You know it makes sense................(or HS2 could overshoot a little, perhaps:ouch:

Even the FW air rickets from NQY and EXT to the islands are around £200-300 a pop return

Flying from one place to another is dirt cheap. It's the landings that cost the money; take offs are free.

Thats confirmed then, OK until the CAA get involved!

Whats an NDB?

A non-disclosure clause. But spelled wrongly:ouch:

Cessnapete, maybe you would like to put your families on an aircraft that operates IFR approaches without any form of regulation or conformance but I would decline. That's what the CAA do! They protect numpties from operating willy-nilly in clouds thinking they know what they are doing. If you want to spend your flying career trashing the CAA then hand in your licence that they gave you!

Skybus do use Islanders. The problem is that they have to operate from Lands End airfield which is 400 ft above sea-level and is frequently in cloud and fog. Theycan't fly in 'much worse weather' than helicopters. The whole crux of the matter is that helicopters operate from Penzance at sea-level and could and again will be able to operate IFR when the cloud is 300 ft above sea-level. Even with the most advantageous limits probable at Lands End with GPS approaches, they will need a cloud base of 700 ft above sea level. That 400 ft difference is what makes helicopters from Penzance so much more reliable than the fixed-wing service from Lands End.

SAR Wannabe


Not so. IFR approach limits at Penzance were 250ft AMSL cloud base and 900 metres visibility, That was using a complicated approach based on Decca, later GPS. One of the leading ATC experts in Europe recently informed me that there is no reason that will not again be possible for the new service. Even with the best possible approach limits expected at Lands End, probably 250/300 ft above airfield level, they will still need a 700 AMSL cloud base to operate.

SAR Wannabe

Sorry but the old service flew IFR services quite routinely between Penzance and the Scillies. I regularly flew six return trips IFR in a morning or afternoon with an instrument approach at each end. It did not block the whole corridor due to separation because we operated with Culdrose radar keeping an eye on us. St Mary's has an NDB but it also had and will have again an instrument approach using Decca originally and then GPS with a DH of 250 feet AMSL

The problem with IF approaches into Lands End is that even if DH's of 250/300 above the airfield are eventually approved that equates to a cloud base of 650/700ft AMSL and it so often isn't. Even then an approach into the prevailing westerly wind requires the aircraft to fly east six miles past Lands End to join then six miles on the approach adding 12 miles to a 28 mile sector. The helicopter approaches are joined directly from the en route track.

insert 'like' emoji here..........................

Time for some out-of-the-box thinking:

The helicopter service was convient, and it had an excitement factor.

Why not have a hovercraft ?! Exciting, novel, fast and not subject to cloudbase :)

DeltaNG: maybe you are just being provocative, but have you ever seen, or experienced, the sea states usual between Land End and the Scillies? Hovercraft might indeed be fast and not subject to cloud base, but they are even more subject to wave height than aircraft are subject to cloud height. They would not operate more than once a week on average and in some months not at all. The Dover Straits were a considerable challenge for the largest hovercraft, so the seas off Lands End will be completely prohibitive. I know whereof I speak, having been in the coastal shipping business for some 45 years.

Yes pettinger: I'm trying to raise a little laugh.

I've flown over the seas between LND and STM for the last ten years, and seen some enormous seas. Not every day mind.

Ok then - what about that Condor thing that they use in the Channel Islands?

Rather too much capacity for the route? Can it/could it sit on the harbour bed at low tide like Scillonian does?

DeltaNG:
Apologies that I missed your joke. (Though there have been dafter suggestions made in all seriousness elsewhere on Pprune)
The mere fact that helicopters are considered a viable option at all is really because all other high-speed sea-going solutions are impractical on a regular basis because of the appalling sea conditions that often occur in the area.

Has there ever been a proper study as to just how appalling the sea state is plotted against the appaling nature of the cloud/vis/wind etc ?

There's no such thing as a bad sea state, just the wrong sort of boat... :}

Safehaven Marine

Friend of mine who's a fairly hardy sailor admits to having felt distinctly queasy on the Scillonian...

Penzance approaches
 

I will admit to being out of date as to modern procedures which is why I am not relying on my memory but on up-to-date information. May I refer you to the open letter published by Sloane Helicopters, the proposed operators (PA16_09346-OPERATING_SITE_REQUIREMENTS_-_SLOANE_HELICOPTERS-3632425.pdf) as part of the planning application to Cornwall Council. It explains in all necessary detail how the service would operate and the specific differences between operating from Penzance and from Lands End. The approaches to Penzance were planned by one of the foremost ATC planning experts in Europe and he was confident that IF approaches into Penzance and Tresco to 300ft AMSL would be approved. They could not be approved before planning permission had been granted. Validation flights have been flown.

Regardless of that, whatever the weather conditions prevailing, because Lands End is at 400 ft elevation and Penzance is at sea-level, Penzance will always be better off. I flew the service for six years, (how about you?) made nearly 4000 round trips, IFR or VFR, in full accordance with CAA requirements including diversion fuel. Within the first year I lost count of the number of times we routinely flew our service while Lands End was closed due to weather. I have flown six of the twelve daily flights VFR with Lands End at 400 'grounded all day. Ask anyone in Penzance or Scillies who used the service and they will tell you which was and will be the most reliable.

At the open meeting held in Penzance prior to final approval of the planning application speaker after speaker got up and said that, for example, (post Penzance helicopter service) that if they wanted to go to hospital on the mainland on a Monday in winter (no passenger boat in winter) they had to plan to travel on the previous Friday, with all the expense of a stay in Penzance over the weekend to make sure they made their appointment. One girl said she nearly missed her own wedding because it took her five days to get off Scillies via Lands End. Never happened at Penzance.

March 2020 I believe.

Their new hangar and helipad are close to completion, flew past there a week or so ago.

It seems the AW139 is stuck in China so they will be initially using a 6 seater AW109SP

From their Facebook...

“Our new service is launching on 17th March 2020, despite a delay to the arrival of the new AW139 helicopter, caused by current Chinese export restrictions linked to Coronavirus control measures!

Despite these unforeseen delays, our scheduled flights will commence in one of our VIP AW109SP GrandNew helicopters! 🚁“

Oh dear. The finances of this operation will be extremely marginal. Perhaps a 109 in the winter months will work? Is it sustainable? Different crew qualifications, different engineer licences, different spares. This could turn into a bit of a mess. Time will tell.......!

“Our new service is launching on 17th March 2020, despite a delay to the arrival of the new AW139 helicopter, caused by current Chinese export restrictions linked to Coronavirus control measures!”

Interesting!

I heard it’s because the 139 is still not on their AOC yet, as they’ve still not applied for it....?!?

The CAA aren’t showing it on the AOC

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/...OCList_N_Z.pdf