Nope, never have. I've got nothing against Will and Harry - they both seem like thoroughly decent chaps (and Harry's Invictus work is actually pretty inspirational). I'm just not kidding myself that either were given the opportunity to become military helicopter pilots for any other reason than they are royals. I am sure that I would have been laughed out the recruitment office had I shown up with a B in A-level Art and a D in geography and said I wanted to be an Apache pilot.

If you had passed the aptitude tests (as they did) you would have got in with those qualifications - I did with far less.

Charles already had his PPL(A) and flew himself to Cranwell for RAF jet training.

Give over, they were never going to fail the aptitude tests or any other 'tests' that were put in front of them.

I'm guessing from your 'crab' moniker that you are (former) RAF? You were really selected for RAF officer/air crew selection with "far less" than two very poor A-levels (one of which was in art)? If that's true I take my hat off to you, but can only assume that you joined at a time when pilot spots weren't at quite the premium they were when the HRHs signed up.

Does everyone who has a PPL(A) get to fly themselves to Cranwell for RAF jet training? Perhaps that should have been my way in...

Buggah! I wish I'd had that kind of of money and 'pull' when I arrived.

I went by train and was met by a Service minibus which was driven by a very sirly Corporal..

I managed eighteen years as a bomber/tanker and then helicopter pilot with the RAF with three 'O' levels.

You joined and served as an officer? I'm guessing from your moniker that it wasn't any time recently. Under current requirements, you would need two A-levels as a minimum according to the RAF website. I suspect given the numbers that apply, you would need more than 'pass' grades in art and geography, and a decent degree as well.

Of course, when you did O levels fareastdriver they were probably as hard as A-levels and a degree today. Maybe crab too...

In my day (very earliest 1970's) it was at least two "A" levels (I did the Scottish version: Highers) and at least five O Grades.

At the time, it was approximately the same as University Entrance, but the with the add-on fun bit of a five day membership at Biggin Hill Sports & Gaming Club.

one grade D A level in accounts and a mixture of O level and GCSE grade 1, totalling 5 - it was the bare minimum academically but I passed Officer and aircrew selection for both RN (AIB) and RAF - the RAF made the best offer.

I was lucky and got what I wanted - to be a helicopter pilot - in the days when the chop rate was significant and they could pick and choose who they wanted (early 80's). Just goes to show that what is required to be a pilot isn't always academic qualifications (the number of graduates that were chopped in my day was very high).

32 years later (all spent in flying posts) I retired but continue to fly and instruct.

As William and Harry prove - exam results do not make the man (or the pilot) - that is due to far more factors so perhaps you can stop being so disrespectful of two guys who have already done far more for their country than you ever will.

I was qualified for a permanent commission in the mid 1970s with A levels in Maths and Physics. The academic requirements for selection as pilot remain to this day at two A levels. Definitely no need for a degree. There's a lot more to military piloting than higher academics.

We agree on that crab, the 'more factors' in Wil's and Harry's case being their royal status.

As I said in my earlier post I have no beef with either of them or the work that they have done for this country (though to be fair, doing work for the country is kind of in the job description, and the least I would expect from a royal family).

The point is, however, that once they had decided they were going to be military pilots the establishment and all that that entails was going to bend over backwards to make sure that they became military pilots because of who they are. If you're ok with that, then no problem. I'm not, which is why I said so.

Don't forget the drugs he took.Prince Harry: I took drugs | Daily Mail Online

Now if I had walked in to the CIO with crap academic quals and admitted to drug use, would I be selected for a commission?

Not a chance is the answer.

We all know it but the drones will find some reason to make it right in this case.

Present members of the HoC and HoL some who are stiill serving.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...itish_politics

It's their grandma's train set. Why can't they play with it?

It's the British peoples train set.

So the fact that I, as an ex-RAF QHI (also served with AAC), can attest to their flying abilities and that their selection and training afforded them no privileges at all, doesn't give you a clue as to how far from the mark you are in judging them?

I think the drones are those who won't let the truth get in the way of their political bigotry because it doesn't suit their version of the story.

I'd like to see either of you (melmoth and heliringer) pass the ground and air check ride that I gave William on his last operational SAR tour - guess what? It was exactly the same as the check rides given to the other 30 pilots on the Sqn and he was far from being at the bottom of the pile.

Privilege doesn't cut it in the mountains at night in poor weather and he has been there many times as the Captain and handling pilot - not something you let little rich boys do.

You won't see past your blinkered anti-monarchy views for whatever reasons I don't care to fathom.

You're missing the point crab. I will take your word for it that their status afforded them no privileges with regard to their training and that they are both highly competent pilots. In all likelihood though (going by their frankly mediocre academic achievements up to that point) neither of them would have been given the opportunity had they not been royals.

As to 'drones not letting the truth get in the way of their political bigotry because it doesn't suit their version of the story', we are in full agreement.

Thank you Ma'am or Sir.
Considerably more than I would have thought.
Be lucky
David

No, Harry will have served with many other pilots in the AAC who had limited academic qualifications and very possibly a dodgy past - the AAC, up until recently, took Corporals into flying training and a significant number of them went on to be operational aircraft commanders before comissioning and becoming Officers.

I understand that you have to believe that two privately educated, well mannered, intelligent young men couldn't possibly have got in on their own merits but it happens every day to normal people with the bare minimum qualifications.

Didn't say anything about them being privately educated. I am myself so really don't have a chip on either shoulder about that. And again I have nothing against them personally - I would agree with everything you said about them.

Look, when it comes to the royals and military flying there is one of three things going on:

1. Every Windsor is a natural born aviator, and there is never any question as to them being selected for pilot training or excelling at it once selected.

2. Military flying just isn't that difficult, and anyone can do it.

3. They get given the opportunity regardless of their ability, because of who they are.

There is no fourth option.

Now, you choose to believe option 1. I believe it to be option 3. I don't think there's going to be any meeting of minds on the subject, so there we go.

I much prefer multi-choice.

The answer is 2 isn't it?

I can assure you crab is quite correct .... If anything the bar was set higher for them . No favours . i know it to be true but I guess if you want to believe otherwise that your right !!!

Bar set higher, you say? Well, there we go then - superior Windsor genes it is then.

I can't see anything special being done for them to be honest training or standards wise.

Price Edwards left the Royals after 4 months no cutting back of standards there.

I wouldn't be surprised if the lads were members of this forum either.

Can't comment about Helicopters and Prince Henry but when his brother decided to ride a motorbike he had to do the full metropolitan police advanced bike course and by all accounts passed it by a considerable margin with great finesse. to the intense chagrin of a very small number who doubted he could do it. Trust me on a police driving course there is nowhere to hide. Cant see the military cutting corners for either of them.
Be lucky
David
P.S. So did his protection team !

Melmoth,

I'm not of the 'old guard', though some of the yoof knocking around might disagree. While I'm fortunate enough to have some half decent exam results, 3 of my colleagues at Linton had the 'minimum requirements' set by the recruitment bods at the time. Didn't do them any harm (decent FJ pilots, though a couple did become QFI's).

Also, flying does have a tendency to 'run in the genes' in much the same way that sporting families tend to have sporting kids . Some of it is nurture and some of it is nature, but a lot of it is self belief.
Seriously, there's a chip on that shoulder. Let it go. They're both good lads in their own right (lucky enough to have worked with both of them) who would have no issues if their surname was Smith.

I would also make the point that the Air Corps milked the exposure for all it was worth, so it really was a two way street. Harry had to put in the hard yards, end of. Try walking one of the Poles then returning for a two week Ex in a tent ooop north. There are NO FREE RIDES in an Apache.

I did, I mean the drugs thing didn't come up until the AIB but they seemed to be more suspicious of the one candidate who swore he'd never tried them.

the fourth one is the one you won't see, even though you don't know them and have no idea what they went through to join up.

The fourth option is that they were inevitably going to join the military (that happens in plenty of families) they both wanted to fly and they both had to meet the entry criteria (medical, academic and selection tests), then they both worked hard during training and met the same or higher standards than their course-mates.

However, melmoth, you seem to know better :ugh: hope you are wearing your tinfoil hat so the security services can't spy on you for thinking anti-royal thoughts - it is all part of a conspiracy isn't it?

That's actually the first option crab, but hey ho.

That was your actual first option - they would not have been selected for pilot training without passing that selection process on their own merits.

There are very few natural born aviators (and neither prince is), people just work hard during training to achieve the standard.

I'm sure your prejudice won't let you accept that.

Would you be happier that they spent their whole lives as playboys because that would satisfy your green-eyed gaze at those young men whose lives (in your view) are a constant stream of privilege and elitist opportunity?

Ex AAC commissioned from the ranks. HIstory O level (B) and Maths GCSE (Grade 2). Education is a tangible yardstick of ability to learn but a lack of educational certificates are not proof of an inability to learn.

Melmoth
I've always had the greatest admiration and respect for your writing over the years.

You've just trashed your reputation...

Sorry to hear that Nige. Before I post next time, I'll be sure to check that my views tally with yours and others to avoid any unpleasantness.

I'm certain there was no reduction in standards for William and Harry when they went through military selection and training. However, there was one particular thing where they did indeed receive 'special' treatment.

Prior to them attending the DHFS helicopter course, the course did not comply with CAA/JAA requirements for PPL(h). Quite a lot of work was done to ensure the course became compliant so that William and Harry could get their PPL(h) without any further training. Things like a qualifying solo cross country navex, vortex ring recovery training in the simulator, revisions to the ground briefings to include LTE and an air law exam were included. This work would not have been done, had PPL(h)s not been a secondary target for the Royal brothers.

Prior to their attendance, the UK military had pretty much actively discouraged their pilots from getting licenses and certainly had not moved the course goalposts to fit. Indeed, several years after they left, with the onset of EASA regulations, guess what? The course is no longer compliant and the military have no interest in making licenses a priority for our serving lads and lasses (at least that was the case 12 months ago, and I've no reason to suspect that it's changed).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a pop at the Royals here. I just dislike the sycophantic way individuals within the military hierarchy moved heaven and earth to accommodate the Royals, when they wouldn't move an inch to accommodate, or reward, the career aviator/soldier.

With you on that one jelly - we have been badly let down by our senior staff regarding training equivalence - all because they are paranoid about people leaving once they get a licence.

How well has that worked then?

You have trashed your argument.

Buggah! Buggah!!

The establishment bending over backwards for the royals was precisely my point. Here is an example. Some may believe this is where it began and ended. I suspect not.

Separately, that was never my argument fareastdriver. Go back and read the post again if you care to. Or don't.

It is because I don't believe military flying to be easy and because I don't believe that every Windsor is a natural born aviatior that I suggest that one or all of them had a leg up to get on the ladder, so to speak.

so by that logic, how do you explain that they both served on front-line squadrons where they were not protected or nannied and fulfilled all the same duties as their compatriots?

Could it just be that they were good enough to cope with the demands of military flying and that their lineage mattered not a jot?

William did the same number of SAR shifts as the other pilots (as well as his royal duties) and captained the aircraft with a variety of experienced and inexperienced co pilots and crews - when on duty he could be called out day or night regardless of the weather, at one of the busiest and most demanding SAR flights - how on earth does your presumed leg up give him any advantage there?