601:
In my experience - very few PPL's stay current with autos let alone EOL's.
An EOL for a private owner is dodgy financial territory.

Islandlad:

You may have a point. I couldn't possibly confirm the skid clearance but there is a slim possibility she landed on top of the bushes, the rotors were stopped and she then settled as the bushes gave way. It would answer my query about the blades being intact too.

A water landing - double edged sword in this particular instance. Better surface to land on by far - as it is flat and obstruction free, thus minimising the risk to life of any impact damage during the auto/EOL. BUT what happens then?

Without flot bags and with a cabin full of people, the cab is going to flip or sink very very quickly and some or all of the occupants could get trapped.

Hence - given the opportunity - current teaching in the dunker is to jettison doors just prior to impact (before the door frames buckle - jamming the door shut).
Hope this helps.

I know this particular area well, having flown past it dozens if not hundreds of times. It is covered with very dense, low scrubby trees. It looks to me like the pilot has landed vertically (either under power or in auto) on the tree tops and they have supported the weight of the helicopter as they have collapsed beneath it. I don't believe he has executed a perfect zero speed auto to a helicopter sized hole in the trees. I'm very skeptical about the helicopter autorotating from an overwater position all the way to the landing site. Depending on exactly where it occurred he would have been at a maximum altitude of 500' or 1000' in order to stay below the control zone step. The pilot said he had 30-35 seconds to land the aircraft, and also mentioned a loss of transmission. I'm guessing he flew under power back across the coast and maybe then entered auto. He seemed to choose his words very carefully and I don't believe he ever actually used the words "engine failure". Just my opinion of course and I'm certainly not having a go at the pilot.

Mk6 - I don't think anyone suggested he managed to land in a small hole - it seems quite clear that he made the hole - but a zero speed EOL (if it was a true EOL) is still not an easy technique, especially with a low inertia rotor system.

Islandlad - yes, it looks like it landed and sank into the bushes - again very lucky because any forward or lateral speed could have cause the skids to catch and roll the aircraft over.

As TC says, water landings are best left to aircraft with boat shaped hulls (Sea King for example) or ones with flot gear (or proper floats) - height judgement again, without a rad alt, is tricky over the water so it is easy to flare too high and run out of Nr during the cushion phase when you realise there is a long way to go to the water.

601 - how many PPLHs practice EOLs in their own helicopters after they have their licences?????

"how many PPLHs practice EOLs in their own helicopters after they have their licences?"

I bet it is a number close to zero! Is it even required in any jurisdiction's PPL(H) flight test?

Krypton,

This is a phenomena spreading through the industry from end to end. PPL and mil are now steering ever further from EOL practice for a variety of reasons, mostly down to cost if there is a small risk of screwing it up.

The fraternity is therefore is in danger of its skill set being erroded.

The jury is STILL out with the Galsgow police helicopter going thru the roof of the Clutha public house several years ago.

The AAIB don't really know what happened between engine(s) out and hitting the rooftop but those who knew him and his training background recognise that EOL's didn't factor in ot much.

How many people on here - across the world - practice true EOL's to the deck?

Funny isn't it. A flying machine designed NOT to glide is being flown more and more by pilots who know NOT what to do at the end of the "glide".

All they ever see is the recovery to the hover, and away to fly another day.

Weird world of nanny state we live in.

I'd think overall, about as many as fixed wing pilots who get to practice glide approaches to a landing in an airliner.....

Simulator EOL practice for the lucky ones.

My previous insurance policy specifically forbade solo autos, let alone EOLs.

When I used to fly single eng in Canada years ago.
All of our practice outos were to the ground ...47, 206, 206l, 350 and 205.
The good old daze.

Curious to the difference between an EOL and an auto? Does EOL mean actually shutting down the engine? You'd have to be insane to do that imo. Or do you mean a full-down auto to an actual landing, as opposed to a power recovery auto?

fwiw, in the US at least, for a PPL-H you need to demonstrate competence flying an auto, but not a full down. That is needed for CFI-H (not even needed for CPL-H).

Personally I was lucky to have an instructor for a time who was happy to do full-downs but since I stopped flying with him, I have not done one. Most US schools etc REALLY do not want to do them. The outfit I currently fly helis with has one instructor (their chief pilot) who is willing to do them, though I haven't flown with him.

I regret it, because they're a real challenge and a lot of fun. But there it is.

Fairly standard in Oz. Including 50ft/50kt EOLs for currency if you have a low level endorsement.

Squeaks: kindly expand on your statement would you?
Is this PPL's, instructors, who does this? You are right on the edge of the dead mans curve @ 50/50. I challenge any PPL to survive this without trashing the cab.

50' 50kt and lined up on finals to a nice smooth paved runway?

In the AAC, we used to do EOLs all the time with students, in Gazelles, with the engine at Ground Idle. Once committed to a landing there was never any option to go to Flight Idle and fly away, so one day I shut it down completely. Guess I must have been insane.

Mighty Gem,

Dead on. My instructor in Advanced Rotary only arrived at Wallop with an EOL to the ground, sometimes zero speed, always in various speed/height configurations. Same with various QHIs on Squadrons, although not all.

NEO

I wish! Over the grass and following a flight path that would be done when low level, not into wind, but with an area to aim for when the throttle is chopped.

OK, not for PPLs but that wasn't seen as the question. CPL and ATPL stuff, we're the ones with the low level endorsements flying low level here on fires, filming, sling loads, power line patrols, etc etc.

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the relative risks of full downs in low inertia ships, i.e. Robinsons, vs. everything else.

In the Robinson risk vs. reward department, yeah the landing might not be pretty given the average private or commercial U.S. certificate holder almost certainly has never done a single full down in a Robinson, but at least everyone has a good chance of walking away. Trade that against how many Robinsons do you want to write off in training until people can do the full down part well?

Wait, don't answer that last part, because some wag is going to say "All of them, please!" ;)

https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watc...nkstown/#page1

I watched the video but cannot post a direct link to it----but someone needs to go back to basic long line class..... this is pretty sad.

Full video here for those with FB:

https://www.facebook.com/7newssydney...6875899003205/

Gordy, this has been discussed since post 37 :ok:

Senior Pilot

I think you mis-understood my post. I think the original pilot did an excellent job of getting the aircraft on the ground with no injuries.

My post was referring to the pilot of the recovery team slinging the R-44. He had the aircraft swinging everywhere and never actually got the thing fully on the trailer. The only post that talked about that was number 38, all the rest are discussing EOLs.

It is part of the problem with having an aerodynamic item (ie a helicopter) underneath another helicopter - it wants to fly and is badly affected by the swirl of the downwash. Add in some crosswind and it can get quite sporty.

However, using more lines attached to the 'load' would have helped the ground team keep it all in order.

I watched a Lynx, underslung from a Chinook start to swing and then suddenly fly back and up with the tail boom of the Lynx coming very close to the rear rotor of the Chinook. South Armagh circa 1985.

Crab,

The aerodynamics of the 44 helped the sling pilot to it's target being a VERY stable load. For the start it looked good, but the swinging of the load was induced by the pilot stirring the pot and not being in control of his load.
The oldest excuse in the book for this, is to blame it on the wind or downwash and I see it all the time with pilots not being current in longline work or with new pilots.
The ground crew could have helped out a bit with good hand signals though...

Your aerodynamic instability is true if we talk about light plane recovery, boats, parabolic antennas, survival shacks, drill floors, flat packed containers, packs of corrugated roofing sheets etc, not a 5-600 kg (lawn) dart

All external loads have it's own Vne which will ruin your day if you go past or at least scare you, and In your Lynx story the pilot of the Chinook flew past the Lynx's Vne as cargo :E

The video of the CH53 that dropps the CH47 that got out of control is a perfect example.

Well put Nubian:

I agree 100% :cool:;) This one was an auto to a field in the middle of the Trinity Alps in Northern California:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3...psugr9yjet.jpg

Nubian - you seem very quick to blame the pilot without being able to assess the conditions of the day.

A helicopter fuselage will tend to weathercock into wind - fine if you have decent airflow over the length of the fuselage but not at slower speeds. An aircraft with a bigger tail assembly (tail boom and fin) would be better but the Robbie has very little windage aft of the rotor mast.

Why else did they attach a drogue to the tail other than to try and keep it straight?

The RAF taught and required EOLs to the ground. On the Whirlwind 10, students had to complete a 45 minute solo EOLs sortie as part of the basic rotary course (prior to wings standard). It was discontinued after the introduction of the Gazelle. Once the speed select was brought back with the flight idle stop out, it was prohibited to attempt to bring the turbine engine back into play. So you were committed to land one way or another. Same with the Gazelle, once the throttle was back, you were committed to a landing.

Shy Torque,

:ok:

Same in the Army.

NEO

Why was that Shy? Went for a ride in a 341 when it was on demo in Oz in the early '70's and this feature always puzzled me. Didn't have the opportunity to quiz the demo pilot.

Megan, it wasn't impossible - I have done it once - but it was actively discouraged to prevent damage to the clutch ISTR. Once you pulled the throttle back to idle (lever in the roof) you weren't supposed to advance it again until you had completed the EOL.

Crab,

I take it from your other posts on here that you're not a production longline pilot, hence you don't see the situation as Gordy, myself and proficient pilots in our game.
The fact that the pilot is not able to get the load under control although using a horrible long time, only to put it down on the ground and be helped by the ground staff tell the tale.

But it amazes me that whenever things like this is being pointed out, there is a resistance to accept the facts and there is excuses left and right and finishing with the conclusion: job well done chap! windy conditions, gusts, downwash etc......

Then it is time to RTB for tea and medals......

Sorry to interrupt the EOL debate.

Happy holidays!

The pilot in the Huey is a very, very experienced operator with some thousands of hours sling work. Look a little more closely at the video before hoicking insults at him.

The crewie could have done a far, far better job than standing under the load and getting in the way. The load should have been rigged with three or four tag lines, and two or three helpers positioned and briefed to stabilise the R44 onto the trailer.

The trailer was parked crosswind, a wide shot seems to show room enough for it to have been parked into wind.

And watch the surrounding scrub being blown around by a fairly gusty wind, taking the load (already trying to weathercock) away from the inputs by the pilot.

We all have bad days but there were some holes in the planning which had a far greater input than the driver!

So, to conclude perhaps, a PPL pilot does a great job of an auto into bush land, narrowly avoiding the sea. He saves his family although he is just a PPL. But, the video proves how comical the professional pilot performs in lifting the survived machine. Nothing better than watching someone else not doing it your way. :)

Nubian, although I have done plenty of underslung load work from 8 to 80 ft strops but not production long line work.

However, a pink body on anything up to 245 ft of winch wire being delivered to the back of pitching and rolling fishing vessels or the tiniest of footholds on a dark and windy mountainside was my usual 'longline' load. All the same handling skills are required.

I think you are being too harsh from the comfort of your armchair on the pilot in question.

As Crab wrote, pilots were prohibited from attempting to re-engage the engine to avoid shock loading the transmission via the centrifugal clutch.

The pre lift planning and ground crew briefing/training seems to be the big problem.
Wind conditions must have been pretty bad looking at the height/position variations in the hover.

Not saying it was a pretty operation but I wouldn't automatically blame the pilot without justification.

Crab,

If I had the experience level as Squeaks say, and was performing as in the clip, I would not be insulted from the comments made here.
You compare is apples and oranges, but I'll refrain from starting a discussion on the differences. But I'm sure you're good at your ''thing''

Armchair?! he-he, have a look at the amount of post you have generated....

Squeaks,

No doubt you can have a bad day, and if the pilot is as experienced and proficient as you say, I am pretty sure he won't be insulted. The quality of the flying is not only down to the hours flown, although many believe so.

I'm sure you would have done a much better job than him Nubian:rolleyes:

:ok:I lifted an R44 out the Boreal Forest last year. Although in a slightly more bent shape. Both occupants unfortunately killed. They fly fine in the cruise, but once rotor wash hits them on short final....same deal, putting it on a low loader with a cross wind. She went on no probs, but quite a work out and that's with over 10G hrs doing precision/production stuff. Also had the pressure of the RCMP, OPP and TSB looking on.That was probably the tenth A/C longline recovery for me.Mind you hadn't long lined in a couple of months as been on forestry spray. I agree Crab et al...you might have a few tho hrs doing strops ,decks and wets etc....but single pilot longline bit like IFR, if you haven't done it in a month or so, first couple of turns take a bit to get into. No SAS,auto hover and crew looking out the door. Anyways back at her on Boxing Day, be safe boys/girls....Merry Xmas!

Was the machine completely undamaged?!