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-   -   Robinson helicopters added to safety watchlist (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/586267-robinson-helicopters-added-safety-watchlist.html)

[email protected] 6th Apr 2018 17:15

Nooby - I would hope that someone with that amount of experience could handle a Robby well but more importantly know where to avoid turbulence in the mountains and how to deal with it if encountered.

If it isn't an issue, why have DoC NZ taken action following a series of incidents???

R22 - goody for you, I suspect what you call getting the sh*t kicked out of you in turbulence probably isn't very high on the scale.

r22butters 6th Apr 2018 17:56


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10109448)
Nooby - I would hope that someone with that amount of experience could handle a Robby well but more importantly know where to avoid turbulence in the mountains and how to deal with it if encountered.

If it isn't an issue, why have DoC NZ taken action following a series of incidents???

R22 - goody for you, I suspect what you call getting the sh*t kicked out of you in turbulence probably isn't very high on the scale.

Yeah, you're probably right. When I become more experienced, I'll start blaming the helicopter like all you other super pilots!
:D

Hot and Hi 6th Apr 2018 17:58

Yeah, and mine is bigger than yours.

Are there any objective metrics for turbulence, which are commonly used? (Leaving aside for a moment the question how to practically measure and/or record them in light singles ...)

Bell_ringer 6th Apr 2018 18:04


Originally Posted by Hot and Hi (Post 10109481)
Yeah, and mine is bigger than yours.

Are there any objective metrics for turbulence, which are commonly used? (Leaving aside for a moment the question how to practically measure and/or record them in light singles ...)

Objective metrics is always a challenge as it requires a common unit of measurement.
How many other aircraft have inflight breakups, particularly with the tail found far behind the rest of wreckage?
Robbies on average, despite their popularity, account for only a third of hours flown.

r22butters 6th Apr 2018 18:41

The fact is that Robby's have limits. You can either accept those limits and have a happy career, or you can ignore them and die!

There was a guy who used to fly his Robby into the clouds a lot, and then post videos on youtube of his awesomeness. Then he died flying his Robby into the clouds!

I don't know why Kiwi's have such a problem with mast bumping their Robbys, maybe their turbulence is different than everyone else's

Whatever it is, Kiwis and Robbys just don't mix, and they should probably just stop flying them!

Bell_ringer 6th Apr 2018 19:03

Every aircraft has limits. They are usually quite well documented and not determined by how well or badly you play rugby.
The DOC hasn't limited their choice of aircraft to any other type. Robinson seem to believe their aircraft are fine but it's clearly kiwi pilots, yet they seem to manage with the other aircraft manufacturers.

[email protected] 6th Apr 2018 20:06


Objective metrics is always a challenge as it requires a common unit of measurement.
Turbulence that significantly reduces the G below 1 or leaves you feeling light in your seat would be a good place to start.

Not a good place to be with a Robinson rotor head.


The fact is that Robby's have limits. You can either accept those limits and have a happy career, or you can ignore them and die
But only the Robbie has had them added to (reduced speed envelope) following a series of accidents and a great deal of pressure from concerned aviators.

As you come to acknowledge your own limitations - as I suspect many of us older types here have - it is reasonable to question those of the machine as well rather than assuming that everyone who hasn't crashed in a Robbie is awesome and those that have, brought it on themselves.

malabo 6th Apr 2018 21:11

R22butters, leave it alone on this forum, you’ll only catch grief. I paid my way from the civilian side and learned, instructed, and flew lucrative contracts on the 22. Retired flying Super Pumas and AW139. Would never have happened without a cheap entry, and side-by-side with other professionals found zero difference compared to the crabs of the world that silver-spooned up through the military.

Now my kiwi friends tell me that the reason for the disasterous record in NZ is from a disfunctional regulatory regime. Outside NZ I’ve found their pilots as good as any and better than most. Perhaps KiwiNed can comment on the quality of regulatory oversight in NZ, and its effect on the accident rate.

[email protected] 6th Apr 2018 21:49


crabs of the world that silver-spooned up through the military
that is a pretty pathetic remark. You paid for your position - I earned mine.

r22butters 6th Apr 2018 21:51


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10109596)
Turbulence that significantly reduces the G below 1 or leaves you feeling light in your seat would be a good place to start.

Not a good place to be with a Robinson rotor head.

But only the Robbie has had them added to (reduced speed envelope) following a series of accidents and a great deal of pressure from concerned aviators.

As you come to acknowledge your own limitations - as I suspect many of us older types here have - it is reasonable to question those of the machine as well rather than assuming that everyone who hasn't crashed in a Robbie is awesome and those that have, brought it on themselves.

You don't have to be an awesome pilot to not crash a Robby, just one who can read the manual and follow instructions!:ugh:

WillyPete 6th Apr 2018 22:46


Originally Posted by r22butters (Post 10109526)

There was a guy who used to fly his Robby into the clouds a lot, and then post videos on youtube of his awesomeness. Then he died flying his Robby into the clouds!

Is that the guy shown covering his dials in the videos of his flights?

SASless 6th Apr 2018 22:57


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10109684)
that is a pretty pathetic remark. You paid for your position - I earned mine.

Sometimes that military silver spoon comes at a mighty stiff tariff!

Crab can be outspoken at times....Lord knows he and I have crossed Swords often but in this case I choose to stand with my ally and brother-in-arms!

There is a huge difference between buying a pair of wings and earning them after they are pinned on your tunic!

SuperF 6th Apr 2018 23:33

The big problem is picking the turbulence. Sometimes it will kick the s*#t out of you earlier than you thought you were going to get it, and sometimes you get none when you are sure you should get some....

Some of the Robbys that have gone down in NZ have been in the lee of the hills with 30-40 kts coming through them, i wouldn't try that in a JR or Huey, so those ones probably did mast bump, but you can't blame the machine. You hear about the aircraft gone missing, look at the weather and ask WTF were they doing in that aircraft, in that location!!

The ones that are a worry, are when they have mast bumped in what should be very calm air. There are at least three in NZ that the weather was virtually calm and they are saying it was turbulence... One particular other helicopters were in the area prior to the accident no wind, and then aircraft out searching within 20 min, no wind. Where do you get turbulence in those cases??

SuperF 6th Apr 2018 23:35

Oh and Crab, i may give you grief sometimes, but i stand with sasless. anyone that serves their country gets my respect.

DOUBLE BOGEY 7th Apr 2018 06:41

I am with Crab too. Passing military selection and the spending nearly 200 hours training under intense scrutiny, always only 5 hours away from review and the chop, is a mission.

Long term survival in this business requires some manipulation involving the types you fly, the organisations you fly for and the scope of the missions you do. After tha, Lady Luck and fate are waiting in the wings.

Having said that let's not trash Butters. His message is really valid, know the limits and apply them. That is all he is saying. As to the Robbie, don't know enough about the. flew an R44 once and was mildly alarmed that the governor is not in parallel to the throttle control and felt weird as I moved the collective and the throttle turned in my hand.

Good luck to all the Robbie jockeys. Follow Butters advice. It's surely a good place to start.

Jeffory 7th Apr 2018 07:06

If only everyone could train on and then jump into a turbine machine from day one.

The fact is that this is not the case, just like how not everyone can go the mil path for various reasons.

To those whom believe pilots haven't earnt their wings because they "paid" for it, that is a disgraceful view. We're all in it for the same reason, hard work is required on both sides of the fence.

[email protected] 7th Apr 2018 09:00


To those whom believe pilots haven't earnt their wings because they "paid" for it, that is a disgraceful view. We're all in it for the same reason, hard work is required on both sides of the fence.
Jeffory - you are quite correct and the last thing we need is another civ vs mil willy-waving thread - I just responded to malabo's rather unnecessary jibe.

I quite agree that whichever route you take involves hard work - the insinuation that mil training is somehow a gift is an insult to all those who serve their country rather than just themselves.

PS - the support is gratefully accepted on behalf of all mil aviators.

cattletruck 7th Apr 2018 10:18

My very first 3 hours in an R22 (under supervision) were in very challenging conditions of wind 25 knots gusting to 30-35 knots. My 4th hour on type was in light and variable conditions and I remember thinking what a false sense of security it was because it was incredibly easy to fly.

Later I would solo in similar challenging conditions and after pulling take-off power it felt like the thing was gonna fall apart in flight so I reduced the collective as there was enough wind providing translational lift anyway, albeit it was quite a bumpy take-off. A few years later I would see someone taxying one at Bankstown Airport under similar windy circumstances and doing it very well - it can be done. I believe these operating conditions are now banned for an R22, probably because the fair weather flyers get themselves caught out.

It isn't the mast that's the Robbi's weakness, it's the lack of weight (and possibly the narrow power band from the engine) that makes it unstable when circumstances become demanding.

As for the mil vs civvy argument, it takes courage to sign up your life to the military as there is no buying your way out of a situation you don't like. The mil pilots I know all flew planks before they were given their limited choice of career progression. Although I did think it novel that some AS350 pilots thought the rubber band set up on our "trainers" was silly until I explained to them that it also absorbs the vibrations from a reciprocating engine.

r22butters 7th Apr 2018 16:07


Originally Posted by cattletruck (Post 10110071)
My very first 3 hours in an R22 (under supervision) were in very challenging conditions of wind 25 knots gusting to 30-35 knots. My 4th hour on type was in light and variable conditions and I remember thinking what a false sense of security it was because it was incredibly easy to fly.

Later I would solo in similar challenging conditions and after pulling take-off power it felt like the thing was gonna fall apart in flight so I reduced the collective as there was enough wind providing translational lift anyway, albeit it was quite a bumpy take-off. A few years later I would see someone taxying one at Bankstown Airport under similar windy circumstances and doing it very well - it can be done. I believe these operating conditions are now banned for an R22, probably because the fair weather flyers get themselves caught out.
.

Yes, before I got my private in 2003 they placed restrictions on wind and turbulance until you have 200 hours total with 50 hours in the R22.
http://https://robinsonheli.com/wp-c.../r22_poh_2.pdf

The 22 is a lot of fun to fly, but please remember, its a Yugo, so don't drive it like a Ferrari.

Hot and Hi 7th Apr 2018 19:24

Is the Robbie the only helicopter with design-related envelope limitations?
 

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10109596)

The fact is that Robby's have limits. You can either accept those limits and have a happy career, or you can ignore them and die
But only the Robbie has had them added to (reduced speed envelope) following a series of accidents and a great deal of pressure from concerned aviators.

Is that really so? And what about the envelope restrictions that at some point were added to the AS350 Squirrel POH, meant to help pilots to avoid, detect, or get themselves out of hydraulics failure induced by a combination of high speed, high collective and cyclic pull? It is being discussed as we speak in a parallel thread right here in the Rotorheads Forum: https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/22...l#post10110061


Immediate action if required to reduce the feedback loads [stemming from temporary hydraulics failure]: Reduce the severity of the maneuver ...
In maximum power configuration, decrease collective pitch ... before initiating a turn...
In hover, avoid rotation faster than 6 sec per full rotation.
I guess these are in itself serious limitations. At the same time, it seems quite possible for most normal missions to stay within the limited envelope and to never encounter the hydraulics problem. Clearly, Robinson is then not the only helicopter with design-related envelope limitations.

It is interesting to see that while here you say only Robinson had to limit the flight envelope, you are the main contributor to the AS350 limitations related discussion in the "AS350" thread. Both in one day.

I guess what we see here is actually quite normal. I could think of different, specific limitations applying to respective other types of helicopter.


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