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Oops,
I meant max OEI HOGE! Well spotted Crab. Post has now been edited. |
Dick, as the Crab and others have mentioned, continued practice and more practice is the key. I operate a 139 in one of the hottest countries in the world (+49 yesterday) and there isn't another helicopter I'd prefer to use. OEI is always a consideration when winching but with good SOPs and a well trained crew using real time information presented to the pilots, most risks can be mitigated. Hovering OEI is not normally an option in the hot summers here but is very often possible in the cooler months after burning off a bit of fuel.
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Yes. All good commonsense here.
But it still concerns me where winching takes place when not really necessary . Hopefully all the issues discussed here are properly considered in Australia. |
Hopefully all the issues discussed here are properly considered in Australia. As already discussed - there is risk involved in most things, especially aviation, but the crews will hopefully have been well trained enough to balance the risks to themselves and the casualty against the operational imperatives (injuries, fuel, daylight, weather etc) and make a sensible decision. However, even with all the right boxes ticked, an essential winch operation can still go wrong. |
Crab. What you say really worries me .
I see winching here when the person can easily be recovered on the ground. You state that there is a real incentive to winch to keep the contract for a winch equipped helicopter. If so a bit worrying |
Dick,
Sometimes I think you are seeing issues when they aren't there. crab@ had a wink emoticon yet you've now alluded to it worrying you. There have been conflicting reports from AW139 drivers about the OEI capability of the machine, some agreeing with and some rebutting whoever you spoke to and sparked this thread. I think we all can see that the Australian emergency services are doing more winching than used to be the case, one reason being that there are more helicopters available to be tasked and another that generally those machines are far more capable than only ten years ago. Personally I applaud the concept, and firmly believe that operators nowadays have far better role equipment and better trained crews than was the case. Plus they have years of experience and well constructed operating guidelines than we ever knew about. Be thankful that they stand ready to be tasked to save lives, rather than seek to limit or remove the capability based on poor briefing or poor decision making in a minority of winch ops. |
I have been involved in rescue hoist work for over 9 years now. On a public use single engine Huey in the US. I crew the helicopters, run the hoist and ride the cable.
We were professionally trained and have a very high standard for pilots and crew. We train twice a month. We have a 90 day recurrency for all crew and pilots. We use the best equipment available. We also do hoist rescues at night on NVG's. Helicopter hoisting is inherently high risk. But we feel that by conducting regular training we can keep it in the high risk high frequency category. Meaning we keep our skills sharp. There is no place here for the "B" team. We will do hoists in life threatening situations or when the risks to ground rescue personnel are too great. Others in this thread have mentioned the same thing. We did one yesterday with a minor injury but by ground would have taken nearly a full day over difficult terrain. In fact one rescuer was injured just getting to the victim. We have aborted numerous missions. Some we returned at first light. Others aborted for weather that never improved. We have had some incidents. A fouled cable and a badly damaged helicopter. But no crew has been lost. There have been fatalities in the US. Texas lost a hoist rescue tech last year. Las Vegas lost a rescue tech and within the last 2 weeks a firefighter fell to his death that was not tethered to the aircraft properly. |
Lots of hot air here as usual from the misinformed. There is far more possibility of an incident attempting to land in an unsuitable area than a winch rescue by a well-trained crew who are aware of the consequences of an engine failure .
The OEI (and I have only heard of one engine failure in a 139) capability of the 139 is good provided that the pilot has some idea of what will happen OEI. The result will be either no effect and the winch can be completed OEI, a flyaway that will involve some height loss or a committed landing to whatever lies beneath the helicopter. These can be calculated fairly accurately using environmental considerations, the PI figure, the Perf Data drop down height loss and pilot experience. Crew judgement on the options of landing vs winching, a good pre-winch briefing of crew actions during an engine failure and good situational awareness makes for as safe a winch as possible. Of course there is no substitute for experience and constant training. Our operation completes 2 hours training per crew every day and this usually involves winching day and night to decks, cliffs, wets or drums. OEI hover can be replicated well in the 139 simulator and we make good use of it as part of 6 monthly OPC training. |
Are there any territories where SAR Technical Crew (as UK CAA call them) is a licensed aviation trade?
What are the pros and cons of such an approach? |
Lots of hot air here as usual from the misinformed. |
Just stating a fact Crab.
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Why would anyone ever land in an "unsuitable" area. Maybe everyone does not warrant a helicopter ride......
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Just stating a fact Crab. |
Maybe everyone does not warrant a helicopter ride...... If we are called to assist a casualty in a spot without an obvious landing site the choice is: do we take vaulable time to find somewhere to land and leave the paramedic to struggle to reach them by foot or do we stay at a safe height and winch? If we have an incident whilst winching then I will be asked why I did not find somewhere suitable to land. If we have an incident trying to land in a hostile area then I will be asked why I did not winch. The casualty might have severe internal injuries - or they might have a dislocated thumb. We do not know. I am paid to do whatever I can to rescue or deliver medical assistance to a survivor in whatever way we, as a crew, decide. In as safe a way as possible. |
or just being a c**k. |
Well, if you are typical of the brave new world of UK SAR then I am very happy not to be part of it and rather pity the people you work with - this was a reasonable thread with a good flow of information before you waded in with your opening insult.
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I do not comment here very often and only if I have something relevant to say on a subject of which I am qualified to comment. Today that is commenting as an experienced and current SAR 139 pilot.
There are comments on the lack of 139 EOI hover performance here by people have never been in a 139 - or flown SAR. I do not comment to gain popularity points. I am sure that you have been waiting for the brave new world of UK SAR to fall apart but we are doing just fine without you Crab. |
Hold on for a moment, will you, chaps?
I'll just dash down the road to get a packet of crisps, a bottle of beer and sort my cushions out. How did humanity cope before winching became to be seen as a twice-weekly necessity, such as it seems to be around my way? Internal injuries or a dislocated thumb? Right, well get that diagnosis sorted before you put other people's lives at risk, please. Winching operations with a Bristol Sycamore - I'm told that was interesting. |
I do not comment here very often and only if I have something relevant to say on a subject of which I am qualified to comment. instead you came across as the big FIGJAM - which is rather pathetic since there were comments from others (not just me) who were doing winching while you were still dreaming of being a SAR pilot. I am well aware the UKSAR world is doing fine without me - how many friends do you think I have in it and where do you think I found the info on winching in the 139? |
Winching operations with a Bristol Sycamore - I'm told that was interesting. They then proceeded to base where the survivor was off loaded, the Sycamore was flown back to the crewman, who was sunning himself in the dinghy, he was winched up by the pilot and they all went home. I had time on the Sycamore but fortunately not winching. |
Internal injuries or a dislocated thumb? Right, well get that diagnosis sorted before you put other people's lives at risk, please. If the casualty was one of your children would you want a rescue helicopter to fly around in circles for a hour waiting for an ambulance to get there to diagnose life-threatening internal injuries or a dislocated thumb? We don't put our lives at risk. We make informed, professional decisions and are paid to do the job. |
Except that, as you well know, in a majority of rescues in the UK, there already is someone on the ground with the casualty - MRT, ambulance paramedic, first responder, coastguard etc etc so you already know from talking to those on airwave/ch 0 on scene what you are facing.
You often get launched with scant information but this is usually quickly updated en route and the main reason you have been tasked is because a winch-equipped helicopter is the best way of extracting the casualty quickly and getting them to primary medical care. On the occasions when you are first on scene then winching is often the most expeditious way to get the winchman/paramedic to the casualty in order to make an assessment on the injuries and urgency. |
In my days as an active bush walker in the NSW Blue Mountains every injured person was carried out by volunteers of the Federation of Bushwalking Clubs S&R section.
Now days virtually every person is lifted out by helicopter. This is far better as long as affordable and doesn't result in unnecessary accidents and fatalities . I love helicopters but they often result in extra risk than being on the ground. When the person about to be winched is given no choice ( when there is a safer alternative ) it's important that they are not exposed to unnecessary risk. |
Although I suspect that most people, given the choice between a short helicopter ride and a long carry out (when they need to go to hospital) would probably take the helo every time. Especially given the number of poisonous things in the bush!
Most winching iterations are conducted perfectly safely - providing the crew are properly trained and practiced. |
We don't put our lives at risk. |
Dick,
After all the dust settles on a rescue, of course there is discussion about how it could have been improved or modified. Safety, CRM, achievement or non-achievement of the aim will all be covered during the debrief and modifications made if/where required. 20-20 hindsight is a wonderful gift. Unfortunately, the gift is not given until after the rescue. During the rescue you must rely on your training and your previous gifts of 20-20. No-one goes into a rescue with the intention of increasing risk. |
Someone might REALLY need your helicopter tomorrow.
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Crab. The important word is "most ".in the last line of your post.
As long as there is no pressure to winch when there are safer ways to do the retrieval I am happy. |
Maybe not from your seat mate. |
I couldn't do the job of a winchman and their bravery and willingness to do what they do to help people in need is humbling. |
Northland Rescue is a bit of an outlier in NZ, operating a fleet of S76A.
They winch over land and sea, night and day. This one on the weekend: Injured skipper hauled to safety in dramatic chopper rescue off North Cape - National - NZ Herald News |
Didn't happen.
Witness claims chopper winch 'drops' doctor - Queenstown News Paul Taylor15 Dec 2011 Rescuers claim a doctor was dropped when a helicopter winch failed during an operation to save an injured hunter. Members of the Queenstown Alpine Cliff Rescue team say the medic was a few metres above the ground when the cable on the winch snapped. Any higher and he could have been killed, they say. Their version of events contradicts the official report submitted to authorities. Lakes District Air Rescue Trust (LDART) – the body which organises Queenstown’s helicopter rescues – has submitted reports stating the doctor was on the ground at the time and the winch mechanism jammed rather than snapped. The Civil Aviation Authority is investigating the incident, which occurred during a dramatic night-time search and rescue operation at Sawyer’s Creek, near Skippers Canyon. It has deemed the incident “critical” due to the potential injury to the doctor, who was not hurt. Senior rescuer Rupert Gardiner, 31, says: “He was a couple of metres above the ground. He was being lowered back down because he had got caught up in the trees. “The cable snapped, completely.” “The winch failed and he fell probably two metres down to the ground. “We weren’t right underneath but we were quite close. “It was unnerving, absolutely, seeing him come down. I didn’t feel like getting on a winch after that.” Queenstown Alpine Cliff Rescue senior trainer Chris Prudden, who didn’t attend, adds: “I was told there was a complete failure, the cable let go and he fell to the ground. “The other statement I heard was that if he was higher he would have been dead.” The rescue operation was launched to save a Christchurch hunter with life-threatening injuries. The 30-year-old had suf***fered a compound fracture of the left femur falling from a waterfall – which means the broken bone had pierced through the skin. His friend raised the alarm and a Southern Lakes Heli*copters Squirrel air*craft, piloted by experienced rescue pilot Richard ‘Hannibal’ Hayes, flew in from Te Anau. The Te Anau chopper – the nearest with a winch covering the Queenstown area – arrived on scene, near Crystal Hut about 3km from Skippers Bridge, at midnight on October 23. It flew back to its Te Anau base after the winch failed to fit a replacement and returned about an hour later to extract the casualty and doctor from the difficult terrain. LDART has submitted reports to the CAA, the Department of Labour and the Accident Compensation Corporation. Tony Hill, LDART executive secretary, says: “It is quite clear in the report, which the doctor completed, that he didn’t drop to the ground. “They had lowered him back to the ground so they could move the helicopter more directly above to stop the pendulum effect. “The next thing the winch malfunctioned so they weren’t able to pull them back up. At this stage they were on the ground. “I’m totally comfortable with the comments that the cable didn’t snap and the doctor didn’t fall. “The cable did not snap. It won’t snap – it’s bloody thick. That’s absolutely in**correct. The winch mech*anism failed. “I wasn’t there and I’m only telling you what has gone to Government. So if he wants to dispute that he’ll have to take it up with the doctor. “For his own privacy he has asked not to be named.” Hill says Hayes, who was unavailable for comment, is the most qualified rescue pilot in New Zealand with 40 years’ experience and was supported by an experienced winch man. Lloyd Matheson, Southern Lakes operations manager, says: “I’m not in a position to make any comment to any media if there is an official investigation underway. “I’ll leave it to the CAA to deal with.” The winch has been taken to Auckland for tests. The casualty, stabilised by the doctor and given morphine for pain, eventually arrived at Southland Hospital at 5am the next morning – 10 hours after the fall. He’s believed to have undergone surgery and is recovering well. Three members of the Queenstown-based Alpine Cliff Rescue team assisted in the operation. |
Somewhat conflicting reports so it will be interesting to see what the real story is when the winch has been examined.
There are all sorts of failures that can occur in the mechanism including jamming and runaway out (if the braking fails) as well as electrical control issues. The winch cable certainly shouldn't snap unless it has been seriously overstressed - although a short fall with an abrupt deceleration can shock load it. This is why the winchman should be winched upwards from the cabin before then being winched out to the casualty (rather than dropping off the doorstep or sill) and it tests the integrity of the cable and harness before committing the winchman to a vertical descent. Winching through trees is tricky at the best of times but more so at night - however, given the nature of the injury, it seems clear this was the best course of action. |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 9476228)
Somewhat conflicting reports so it will be interesting to see what the real story is when the winch has been examined.
15th December 2011 :ok: |
Sorry John, I didn't note that - are there any links to the outcome of any investigation?
I can't find it on the NZ CAA website and accident/incident register. |
It's a CAA so it really could be that slow!
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crab, it didn't snap. what did someone say about trusting witnesses versions of events a few days ago. even "professionals" can get the story totally wrong. An AD or safety note or something came out from CAA. i think the winch seized, or something.
Funny that the doctor said he didn't drop, but the witnesses are certain about what they saw....:ugh: |
The incident was on the 23rd October 2011 at midnight, but there seems no history of a report or an investigation: CAA Occurrence briefs - Accidents in 2011
There doesn't seem to be any Incident report, I realise the link is to accidents. Reading between the lines, if the cable jammed and was then cut with the doctor on the ground, uninformed and alarmist bystanders could then assume that the 'cable on the winch snapped'. Probably destined to be one of life's mysteries, unless someone from Te Anau is able to enlighten us! |
Originally Posted by rottenjohn
(Post 9482841)
shame, it seems to have disappeared, people might have learnt from what went wrong
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Back to the original thread - Catch 22.
The reason there is more winching done is that the size of the aircraft has increased to the point where there is more at risk trying to land or it physically can't land due to its size and downwash. :ugh: |
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