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This guy did both .... skids down on grass , then slid across the runway , then back to grass Had a flameout while doing a maximum performance takeoff .... go to 5:00 in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ltxduwRp_g |
Have you read the comments on that video?
"Helicyclepilot,You did a great job landing, they don't glide long do they? " "Awesome piloting! Split second decision making is the trademark of the pros." "u are your own lifesaver. awesome job" "Great job man !" "Great recovery stan!" Max performance take off you say … I say bollix. If you're going to do one of those, you sit in the hover and check all is well before undertaking the exercise, not just hoof it all in from MPOG! No wonder it went Pete Tong! Of course, someone is bound to pipe up now and say, 'Sid, we do things differently over here!' Oh well, that may well be the case; which is ok if you want to hear of yet another 'brilliant pilot' piling in! But inevitably some would just put that down to bad luck !!! Oh really :eek: |
On a more back to thread note:
I'm sure anyone that has visited the EOL area at Wallop would have had the 'little hop over the old track to Knock Wood experience'. :ok: |
But as noted....in helicopters the slower you are at touch down in both vertical and horizontal directions the better off you are. |
What sort of take off was that at 5:25? Max performance take off you say … I say bollix. If you're going to do one of those, you sit in the hover and check all is well before undertaking the exercise, not just hoof it all in from MPOG! No wonder it went Pete Tong! He owns all the land and farm equipment he flies over in the other videos and the long narrow path through the forest leads to the hangar where he built the helicopter . best wishes. |
Hover check ??? ... he had just landed 5 seconds earlier , everything was working fine Yea, why bother with checks, just take up valuable time don't they :rolleyes: "Demonstration for a friend", that 'old gem' and of course; sorry, I forgot that if you own the land below you, it doesn't getcha :ugh: |
What check would have identified this particular issue?
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Krypton john, you seem to have confused me with someone that cares about what matey boy gets up to.
As long as he doesn't ruin anyone else's life, crack on, I'll look forward to his own thread later. |
Calm down Sid, it's a serious question. Do you have an answer?
You do seem to care enough to bother making multiple posts here? |
If you care to read my other post, I'll go with Shawn, however as previously mentioned, chances are you won't have much of a choice.
I do however care enough about the dark side of these threads where the actions of some are considered the norm, and those actions are only supported by the impressionable. The real tale behind the video; Full down auto from HV curve Last Veterans day ....November 11th, I was flying around and decided to go up to the airport. I landed and noticed a friend of mine watching. I decided to show him a very aggressive rate of climb...so I took off and pulled the collective like I had never before. I am kicking myself as I let euphoria take over common sense. The helicopter was climbing like a homesick angel, when I noticed my rotor rpm's were declining. There isnt a torque meter...or a manifold pressure gauge since its a turbine...and its not necessary to pull a lot of collective...which I did anyway as I was caught up in my dumbass moment. I saw the rotor rpm's down...and dropped collective. Unfortunately, this caused the turbine's rpm to surge....and it overshot the overspeed limit, shutting the turbine down......flameout! I immediately dropped all the collective and here I was at low airspeed, no more than 100 feet up....and dropping like a rock. I lowered the nose trying to milk out as much energy as I could. The ground was rushing up...and my only possibility of saving this ship was to do a runon landing at around 40 mph. I landed straight with my flight path which started in the grass on the west side of the runway...then sliding on a diagonal across the asphalt runway...into the grass on the other side before stopping. I held full collective on the whole ground run on to minimize my decceleration so as to help keep from flipping on my nose. It came to a stop...and I lowered the collective...got out and checked it over. I started the turbine up and all was fine. It was getting dark so I left it in a hanger...checked it over the next morning and flew it back to my shop. I just happened to have had my skid mounted video on...and it was very clear. If you watch it...the video starts at my shop where I keep the helicopter...then you can see me flying around a farm tractor. I land at the local airport...and at 5:28 I lift off and start doing something I had never done...over torqued the collective. At 5:42 in the video, you can see a left yaw when my turbine flamed out...and the rest is history. Time came to a crawl. I let euphoria get me into this situation....and I was given the chance to redeem myself by doing what was necessary to hit the tiny keyhole that would save my helicopter. I have been told that this is probably one of a few if not the only actual video of a real flameout in the HV curve and able to fly it away afterwards. I am just a fledgling helicopter pilot.....and I learned more in that 10 seconds than any instructor could bark in my ear in a year. I had the dreaded 3 C's on this flight. Crowd...one is enough.....Camera.....yep ..it was on....confidence....you bet.... Thanks for all the comments. I beat myself about this, and learned a lot. I have an excellent helicopter that I almost destroyed by asking it to do more than it was designed for. I had a chance to save it though, and I did. I am a fledgling helicopter pilot but having this happen on Veterans day made me feel like maybe I am more of a helicopter pilot now, at least a veteran of having a real auto at a most serious time. I have over 800 hours in gyroplanes and have had 18 forced landings in them without a scratch. Helicopters are a different animal, and I will be a better pilot by keeping myself at flight speeds and altitudes where another auto will be a lot easier to handle. |
NTSB Identification: WPR16LA055 Scheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter Accident occurred Sunday, January 17, 2016 in Hanalei, HI Aircraft: AIRBUS EC130, registration: N11VQ Injuries: 4 Serious, 3 Minor. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report. On January 17, 2016, about 1430 Hawaii standard time, an Airbus EC130 T2, N11VQ, landed hard on a beach 2 miles west of Hanalei on the Hawaiian island of Kauai after a reported loss of engine power. The commercial pilot and 2 passengers sustained minor injuries, and 4 passengers were seriously injured. The helicopter sustained substantial damage to the tailboom and airframe. The helicopter was registered to Nevada Helicopter Leasing LLC, operated by Blue Hawaiian Helicopters under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations, Part 135, and was conducting an air tour flight at the time of the accident. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight, and a company visual flight plan had been filed. The local flight originated in Lihue at 1406. The pilot reported that he was about 1/4 mile off shore northwest of Honopu Sea Arch at 1,300 feet mean sea level (msl) when he heard the low rotor rpm aural warning horn. He immediately entered an autorotation and turned towards the beach. He transmitted over the radio that he had an engine failure. As he approached the shoreline he made a right turn to the south and landed hard on the beach. He applied the rotor brake to slow the rotor, and at that time he noted that the engine was not running. The passengers began to exit and he pulled the engine fuel cutoff. |
Krypton,
What check would have identified this particular issue? |
SilsoeSid '5 seconds earlier everything was fine', however 5 seconds later it wasn't Yea, why bother with checks, just take up valuable time don't they chopjock How about a throttle "chop" from full RRPM before lifting? If the idle stop screw was set too low, this may have revealed it. The Helicycle uses a belt drive to the 90* gearbox same as R22 & H269 Helicycle belt tension is carefully set so the belts will slip in an overtorque so as not to exceed transmission limitations. The Helicycle turbine is also set up to prevent overspeed by shutting the fuel to idle via a different control than a throttle chop. It was this idle screw that was set too low and caused the flameout. And the only way to find that out was to have an actual overtorque and overspeed. It would not show up in ground checks. Got to give the guy credit , he built the helicopter himself and it is one of the smoothest machines in the world vibration wise , plus he had a flameout in the dead mans curve and managed to land it without a scratch and flew it home afterwards. |
Arnie
Helicycle belt tension is carefully set so the belts will slip in an overtorque so as not to exceed transmission limitations. The Helicycle turbine is also set up to prevent overspeed by shutting the fuel to idle via a different control than a throttle chop. And the only way to find that out was to have an actual overtorque and overspeed. It would not show up in ground checks. |
Arnie, two things;
1. Does the Helicylce have a published flight manual or POH? Is there a Performance section/chapter in this POH? Is there an actual HV Diagram? 2. If there is, why does this guy always seem to fly in the right hand part of it? |
chopjock But if "over torque" only causes the belts to slip, then one could overspeed it on the ground checks to confirm fuel shut off to idle is set correctly, right? |
SilsoeSid I dont have time to watch all the videos right now .... the guy is not a crazy cowboy flier , he even cut the path thru the trees in case he had to auto when leaving his yard.
The low mounted camera maybe exaggerates his speed a bit On that subject , it is an un-stabilized camera stuck to the underbelly ... notice how smooth the machine is ... hard to spot any vibrations at all . Helicycle has a heavy rotor ala B206 .. lots of inertia for auto. |
This from you:
not a crazy cowboy flier maximum performance takeoff like I had never before let euphoria take over common sense something I had never done...over torqued the collective Crowd...one is enough.....Camera.....yep ..it was on....confidence....you bet.... Could call himself lucky to still being able to think about it... And I will try to not make this error by myself. Although I would not promise it. Thracian |
I don't see low flying as being in the HV curve and see no problem with his flying ..( other than an over torque if that's what happened )
Also how many people do a power check on every take off even if it's effectively a touch and go ? I think he did a pretty good job !! |
Nigelh; I don't see low flying as being in the HV curve and see no problem with his flying ..( other than an over torque if that's what happened ) Also how many people do a power check on every take off even if it's effectively a touch and go ? I think he did a pretty good job !! https://www.airbushelicopters.com/we...S-00-R0-EN.pdf I gather you fly/own the 500 and 350, so needless to say you must be familiar with these; http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g1...psnmggkigp.png http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g1...psvxz3ugyt.png … and for the R22 flyers out there; http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g1...psdeqqtxbe.png So, do you still think low flying is not in the curve? :confused: As for the checks on take off, like clearing turns, maybe for some of us it is habitual to check all is well when lifting into the hover. :ok: |
Sid,
Interestingly, in your posted copy of the RFM for the H500 Height Velocity Diagram, it doesn't state "HEIGHT", it states on the vertical axis "ALTITUDE ABOVE TERRAIN - FEET" So what's the difference between this and HEIGHT? This is a HEIGHT VELOCITY DIAGRAM, not an ALTITUDE VELOCITY DIAGRAM. right? |
Sid, Interestingly, in your posted copy of the RFM for the H500 Height Velocity Diagram, it doesn't state "HEIGHT", it states on the vertical axis "ALTITUDE ABOVE TERRAIN - FEET" So what's the difference between this and HEIGHT? This is a HEIGHT VELOCITY DIAGRAM, not an ALTITUDE VELOCITY DIAGRAM. right? … or b. |
Ok ..i accept that low flying may be inside the curve !! Im not sure why , as i would say that engine failure at say 30- 60knots and 10ft was a very easy auto to pull off . I do however accept that a turn to check behind before a towering t/o would be my method !
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Sid
Chopjock, you do realise on what parameters full size aircraft performance is based on don't you? Because I have never heard of the term "ALTITUDE ABOVE TERRAIN" before. I know the definition of ALTITUDE and HEIGHT, do you have an answer? |
Chop, are you getting confused with elevation?
'Altitude above terrain' is what it says, I can't see what you're missing :confused: |
Sid,
'Altitude above terrain' is what it says, I can't see what you're missing That's what I am confused about. |
Just to say that I'm not ignoring you chop, still waiting to see if you've worked it out yet :zzz:
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Just to say that I'm not ignoring you chop, still waiting to see if you've worked it out yet "ALTITUDE ABOVE TERRAIN" |
Ok ..i accept that low flying may be inside the curve !! Im not sure why , as i would say that engine failure at say 30- 60knots and 10ft was a very easy auto to pull off . I do however accept that a turn to check behind before a towering t/o would be my method ! Flying @ 20' 60kts in an MD500 would probably cartwheel an average joe and kill him. Reactions aren't fast enough. In an R22 - 500' @ 30 kts will probably lead to a collision with the ground by the average abo if he/she doesnt react instinctively with the lever. Having said that, to be fair, the definition states that the average pilot with average reactions suffering an engine failure inside the HVC will result in probable airframe damage at best, death at worst. Even twin engine helicopters have HVC's. Some scarey pilots out there.................................................... :hmm: |
Yes, obviously"ALTITUDE ABOVE TERRAIN" means vertical height above sea level above terrain. LOL Answer me this, What are the five different types of 'Altitude'? |
Ok so there's pressure, density,indicated, true and Absolute.
But the height / velocity curve is all about the height and velocity above the surface, right? I agree if the air is thinner due to high terrain, that should be taken into account, but the graph does not show this. So my point is the left side of the graph should depict height, as in vertical distance about the surface. So why does it say ALTITUDE? (especially if there are 5 different types!), and yet the Robinson H/V curve is in HEIGHT as it should be. I guess MD really mean "ABSOLUTE ALTITUDE" instead of the term "HEIGHT" |
Hey choppy; after all that, how is it that you don't have an issue with the term 'velocity'?
:rolleyes: |
how is it that you don't have an issue with the term 'velocity'? |
how is it that you don't have an issue with the term 'velocity'? |
Choppy babes:
Aviation altitude is measured using either mean sea level (MSL) or local ground level (above ground level, or AGL) as the reference datum. Otherwise - I like your determination :D |
TC ..... I thought you were dead !!! I can only imagine that you were a sub standard Mil pilot or that now in your old age your reactions are very slow :rolleyes: If you have actually done throttle chops at v low level you may understand ...... You are aware that when you fly ...you just fly the aircraft and react to changes of pitch etc automatically . You don't actually need to know you have had a failure , no need to drop collective with lightening reflexes . You just flare ....as much as you need to in order to keep height . If you would like a lesson from me I'm quite happy to teach you . Off course being a military God you probably never did crop dusting and never learnt the art of really low level . The crop dusting pilots on here could teach you a few things about HV curve and what's possible as they are flying in it all day long :eek:
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The crop dusting pilots on here could teach you a few things about HV curve and what's possible as they are flying in it all day long :eek: That is the moment when the shaded parts of the curve or statements like "within autorotative distance from land" come into play :( Which is why we will read things in manuals, such as; Use of Chart: Caution: Observe the cross−hatched regions of the Height Velocity Diagram. These represent airspeed/altitude combinations from which a successful autorotation landing would be difficult to perform. Operation within the cross−hatched area is not prohibited, but should be avoided. Dance with lady luck too often and eventually she'll step on your toes :ooh: |
Ok fine Sid... So you wouldn't crop spray , sling load , or winch would you ?? I think what you meant to say was that it is not a good idea taking unnecessary risks dallying in the HV curve unless you are doing a job that requires it :ok: Flying outside of auto distance of land is totally different and you should have floats !!
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SilsoeSid ... you remind me of the guy who goes to the airport and opens his hangar door. The rule books are stacked to the ceiling but there are no aircraft . . |
Nigelh; Ok fine Sid... So you wouldn't crop spray , sling load , or winch would you ?? "Of course we all know that there's no problem flying in 'the shaded areas', much like flying over the sea beside the cliffs … until the donkey stops that is!" p.s. You forgot to mention, low level tactical flying, fast roping, abseiling, fire fighting, lake/river rescue, etc in your list :rolleyes: Flying outside of auto distance of land is totally different and you should have floats !! |
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