Police aviation news, another 902 bashing!
 

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Ac...August2015.pdf

Whilst PAN has a history of knocking the 902, I would say the truth hurts?
This has been done to death on prune, another 135 vs 902 vs 429 thread would be just......... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
We all know how good an airframe it is, but without a coordinated support network it is useless. That goes for any aircraft.
If these figures are correct then it COULD be shocking performance. However you need to look at why it was off each time. Sometimes you just have a run of minor "unlucky" snags that could happen to anyone.

Unfortunately that anyone seems to be repeated.... A lot

902 looks good to me. small disk, no t/r hazzard, nice utility volume

besides all of those machines have severe problems carrying spare engines around with themselves almost pointlessly when live-saving is compromised so much.

Anfi, I think you need a therapist mate!

Twin vs single again? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

It is the only mantra AnFI has!

I think he's trolling and you guys all just took the bait!

902, good and not-so-good
 

Anfi, spot on comment. I absolutely agree.
It's a capable machine though the HEMS Operation in London is not helped by

• Not being able to keep the machine on the hospital roof at night
• The operation is some 100+ miles from the Part 145 AMO

As I see it though, it is the lack of OEM support that is primarily the fault here. The problem in my eyes is that MDHI have a difficult conundrum to resolve. They have sold what, 200 aircraft, but they HAVE to support them. This is where it gets difficult. Ms Tilton probably thought that $50M injection was adequate for manufacturing helicopters; probably it was, The trouble is that one has to invest for supporting them and then it is the numbers game for the tooling-up for parts, which ones, minimum production runs and all the other problematic issues that occur. (Those EFIS glass-screens are eye-wateringly expensive, for all concerned, on an exchange basis). Rock and a hard place, which is a pity since I think the machine is more than capable of doing exactly what it says on the tin, but support is lacking.


I have no idea what Bell's inventory investment might be, but significant that's for sure. Yes of course they have many more aircraft to support, but they do, which is why they consistently come top of the support polls. Amortization of the investment can be justified, however, where with MDHI it would be much less easy to do so. $50M doesn't go very far........


I've met Gareth Davies, and I understand he is a leader-of-consequence in life-saving trauma, but the vehicle he needs for his work doesn't work when he needs it to. So I too, wonder at what alternative London HEMS may choose; I'm not sure a mixed fleet would be the best idea, but what would I know as just a lowly LAE? :O


And yes, you nailed it in one - VFR

133 Explorers delivered since 1994, compared to 230+ Bell 429s since 2009 (excl. prototypes). Unfortunately this results in a vicious circle: the OEM isn't willing to invest in the spares inventory for a small, static fleet, which in turn kills any prospect of additional sales.

I/C

I/C - the 429 would be an odd choice, given the weight issues. eg. Wiltshire cannot do back-to-back calls without refuelling - that's some limitation

I/C - your MD902 production figures are close, but still optimistic - I can't make it any higher than 122, and I'll provide details of my calc if you wish.

vfr440 - London told me they are looking at a second MD902. They should pick one up very cheap given the plentiful availability.

Some more details on London's "50 days" which is not clear from the PAN report is this:-

• 25 days for annual maintenance
• 18 days to sort some nose damage sustained on the ground, a one-off situation
• 7 days cumulative early evening routine maintenance on operational days

HeliHub,

You're right on the Explorer production total. My initial 133 count was for S/Ns 900-00008 through 140 (S/Ns 001 & 002 being prototypes, and S/N numbers 003 through 007 never being allocated). However on review S/N numbers 009 and 047-051 were also never being allocated, and S/Ns 8, 95, 110 and 117 were retained as company demonstrators, with 138 also currently remaining at Mesa.

Re: the 429, I was simply highlighting the difference in production rates between the two types, nothing more.

I/C

Reaping What Was Sown
 

Bell was in position to buy the MD commercial products, but Airbus in collusion with low IQ MD operators successfully blocked it. So MD operators got what they deserved.

As to the 429, operate it at 7500 Lb like many in the world do and it puts Airbus products to shame.

The Sultan

London's 902
 

At the time I signed off on the order for London's 902 we were desperate for a machine with real performance as the dear old Dauphin N was well past it. The 902 was the best package available at the time with only the BK117 C2 in the frame there was little choice (circa 1999)

The 902's future was unknown at that point but if it had been supported well I have no doubt that it would have been a great success. As it is I believe it still has potential and for inner city ops it's a hard package to beat.

There was at one point the possibility of teaming up with the London Fire Brigade with a pair of 117s but they couldn't find any money to bring to the deal so that went by the board.

If my dreamworld Bell would take on the 902 and make it work with a redesigned 'B' model - a '903'. I know it will never happen.

G. :{

I/C - right on. Actually it was 48-51 which were not allocated and you missed 42 which went on demo to the Dutch Police and remains locked in their hangar to this day...

Well,

they should consider a BK117 - quite a lot of EMS-Services are changing from BK117 to H145 (EC145T2) - so prices for used HEMS-BK should drop - and a BK117 is still a good helicopter :-)

Flying Bull
 

The BK117 would be a step backwards performance-wise and tail rotor-wise. Working Cat A from a city rooftop needs the best you can get. Maybe the 145 is 'it' but I can't say without taking a close look at the Flight Manual.

G.

@Geoffersincornwall

if you want to get rid of the tailrotorrisks and want power, the H145 should be the choice.
Power to spare.
Havent flown one yet, but seeing the big smiling faces of everybody, having the chance, tells the story.
We had a demonstrator here - and the training department says, that single engine manovers doesn´t really need training with the H145 - it will just continue with one engine - and be sure - they tested it with AUM!

RB
 

FLYING BULL - Sounds good - if it's OK for our future king then I guess it will be fine. The key thing for London HEMS is that they like to operate two pilot and with three in the back (one is always a trainee).

G. :ok:

The 902 has done a fantastic job, there is no such thing as a perfect helicopter.
With the right support it could be a winner, lack of tail rotor and the tight spots it can land in London makes a safe machine for everyone.
I am fed up with the idiots that say if you can fly a R22 you can fly anything it's not true and the same goes for the 902, it has some great things going for it.
If you havent flown one, don't knock it.:ugh:

First twin I ever flew was G-EHMS. Loved it.

The 902 can be improved upon, MD are addressing this. However they are extracting the urine with their prices, Lynn Tilton losing the run of herself maybe.

The new glass cockpit and weight increase are needed ASAP, particularly in London's case where they operate heavy all the time. Both the current and backup airframes need PW207 power also, but forget doing CAT transfers, it won't have the legs for proper IFR. Local to London is fine.

I agree totally with Tim, was told many many years ago about the R22 fly anything myth. What a load of rubbish. I've seen many many supposedly fantastic instructor types, particularly R22 ones who are nothing short of inept at flying turbines, twins, heavies, IFR, night, external loads. You name it.

As for the 902 being best option, if LAA chose something like a 145T2 or 365N3 (the option was there when the 902 was selected and not chosen........ Why?) then maintenance could or would be scheduled in such a manner not requiring a second airframe. More capital outlay than a second hand 902 but maybe a saving in the long run.......

Just my two cents....