MJB - sounds like a strong contender in the speculation game. Someone on this forum would know if the pilot sits on the left in this operator's 'A-Stars'?

In NZ, our CAA definition for Helicopter pilot flight time is skids up to skids down as well, so we do the same as other guys, and write down every T/O and Landing in the dairy and do a count up at the end of the day.

SuperF, where is this definition in our rules as I have often had this debate but can't find the wording in CAR Part 1?

peely, i've had the conversation quite often as well, just looked at the definitions and it doesn't say skids off to skids down, but i know that "somewhere" CAA have defined it as such for helicopters.

now you have got me thinking, I'll search it out for you. :ugh:

I do know that if you get Audited that your Pilot log book better match up "exactly" with your A/C logbook, and maybe thats where it comes from...

Not speculation if Im asking a question:)
I flew with the operator twice last year in As350b, once with pilot on left the other with pilot on right.
No word yet if the aircraft in question was left or right hand drive.

Mickjoebill

Yes SuperF one or two audits so I appreciate where you are coming from. I always ask them to show me the exact wording but each audit we get a different CAA Rep and therefore a different answer - never seen it in black and white other than the Part 1 definition which is open to interpretation.

While looking for something else, unrelated;

http://www.heli-lausanne.ch/directiv....2418-S-00.pdf

SAFETY INFORMATION NOTICE
SUBJECT: GENERAL
Flight Safety of Helicopters - Issue of EHEST leaflet

AIRCRAFT CONCERNED
EC120 B
AS350 B, BA, BB, B1, B2, B3, D L1
etc

and right at the very end ...

Just incase anyone missed this particular worldwide Safety Information Leaflet.

Can anyone tell me what a "control hold" is in an A-Star?

How does one give a control hold?

Why would adjusting any volume or selector switches be bad during a control hold?

A "control Hold" is where a qualified ground person, (loader, ramper, mechanic), sits or stands next to the flight controls while the aircraft is running and holds down the collective while the pilot leaves the aircraft for another authorized function. This can be written into Ops Specs, (FAA).

Adjusting stuff is not their job.

So you wouldn't be able to do a control hold with just the pilot present?

Not in this particular definition no. Nothing says you cannot leave the aircraft though---there is no such rule.

Gordy, you might as well try to teach a Cat to yodel as try to convince your Brethren of that!

You're not wrong there Bob.....

The question then becomes who tells the pilots there that they can leave the aircraft? The company ops manual says you may not leave it when running unless performing a control hold or pilot swap, yet we hear from pilots there that they do leave the aircraft and haven't been getting into trouble.

I'm just trying to understand the why of it all.

Each Ops manual is different. If you manual prohibits the practice then do not do it.....if it does then no problem.

The FAA allows it, and will write it into Ops Specs if asked, and assuming you have the relevant risk mitigation's in place... (part 135).

Operating Part 91---no rule prohibits it, and there is an AC that give guidance, therefore tis up to you as Pilot In Command to interpret the rules and regulations that you are given, (FAR part 91/135/Ops SPecs etc..), and then to use your judgement and authority granted you by FAR 91.3, (FAA), and determine for yourself what you can argue in a court of law, or worse case in front of grieving relatives....

I defer to the words of SASLess, when given a choice, save in the following order:

Ass....Tin....Ticket.....

Choice is yours dude.....Welcome to the world of being a professional pilot...

Gordy,

And just to be sure - the RFM (as approved) would overrule all of 91, 135, Ops Spec etc.

It is part of Type Certificate. If the RFM prohibits then the only way around it is an STC and RFM Supplement.

or just operate the aircraft in a manner that means you won't ever need to argue in a court of law or in front of grieving relatives - ie don't take unnecessary risks where there is no absolute NEED to.

crab
That sounds a bit like saying don't fly for pleasure or convenience then.

Below 15knots wind, machine parked on proven stable ground, at ground idle, collective locked, hydraulics off, push to test button pushed in; it's not going anywhere :ooh: if it does???? Something was not done from the above list :mad:

Agreed...if that is how the TCDS reads and/or the limitations section in the manual. I never flew a B3E but I have a lot of time in the AS350 BA and B2---neither of those have any limitation prohibiting the pilot from leaving the aircraft running.

Agree to a point---the law is constantly changing. Like chopjock states....one could argue there is never a need to fly a helicopter.

Or something else happened - has anyone considered a hydraulics hardover???
It's happened with the hydraulics off - stick motored to full deflection and stayed there for 30 second (report given to me by the pilot involved...)

You misunderstand me, but no worries. I've been flying commercially for a quite a while now in challenging environments.

The copy of the company manual I have seen (for the company involved in the accident) says you can't exit a running helicopter unless its for a pilot swap or done with a control hold, which is undefined, hence my first question.

Knowing the pilot involved personally and knowing both his method of flying and how he operated I can't see him ever doing something that violated the ops specs, unless the company told him to do one thing in the ops spec but then trained him to do another out on the line.

So I'm trying to understand the why.

No harm done and no worries.

There are many things in aviation and life in general that we struggle to understand. Sometimes it is just best to face West, drink a shot in their name, learn from what happened and move forward. The biggest dis-service we can do for a fellow aviator who died is to not learn something.

Fly smart & abide.......

Unfortunately turning off the hydraulics is a flawed assumption as a few people have found out.

I note that a few condone the action on this thread.

Take a look at the "irreversible" function and how it works on some common models.

You may find that you are better off with HYD ON and friction ON.

Many years ago company policy for leaving the aircraft unattended was to NOT turn HYD OFF as they had found out the
hard way on more than one occasion!

Bull$hit and assumption will only get you so far!

RVDT speaks correctly.

Leave the Hydraulics ON...that is the standard mode that it was designed to use at all times.

Lots of Friction and a Control Lock if fitted is the right way.

Hydraulics off, the controls can overcome even the tightest friction in some cases. Some aircraft are totally uncontrollable without hydraulics, and thus are required to have two independent systems. Some have only one system, but are only marginally controllable without it. The only time I would turn the hydraulics off in any helicopter would be for required checks or training. I've done hydraulics off landings in the AS350, but it's a handful, and you have to stay on top of it. Give it a minute or two without any intervention, and bad things may happen. With the hydraulics working and the friction tight, nothing should move. But I still wouldn't risk exiting with the engine running unless it was really, really necessary.