Bordeaux Bob,

Bush Flying for at over Forty Years has involved Rotors Turning operations like refueling, hooking up external loads, loading cargo, and other chores.

A lot of things were done in years past.Obviously, there is a reason why we don't fly helicopters with wooden blades anymore.Trying to make the argument that these things can be done "right" is a double edged sword.There are helicopters and then there are helicopters. There is a reason why this is not done in an AS350.For one, from shut down to start up it takes all of five minutes if no one is is in a hurry. Most companies recognize the higher risk involved in a single pilot operation and have procedures in place to prevent such accidents.

Judging from some of the comments, there are some very inexperienced Pilots waxing not so eloquently about this tragedy.

Thank goodness for that!The "experienced" lot has certainly covered themselves in glory over the past two decades in EMS!:rolleyes:
Alt3.

THOMAS COUPLING
 

Not sure about the Darwin award, TC but I would nominate you for Ahole of the year. Glad I never had the honor of working with you, mister know-it-all.
Sometimes I wonder how a mental case like you are still around.

Alouette,

You ever reckon maybe some of those events in the past were NOT done "Right" and thus got into the Record Books?

Considering the Accidents of late I would suggest the younger Generation has its own problem children too.

When everything goes "Right" we do not hear about it. It only when someone makes a gross mistake do we hear about that.

Think about that a while and get back with Us will you?

I have never flown the model of helicopter in question.

So, for my understanding:

When one starts the engines, does it start and then run at idle for a bit (blades turning) and then when you are ready you increase RPM to flight rpm, or, when you start it, does the start sequence not pause at idle but go from light off to fly rpm, at a manageable rate, with no "pause" at idle?

Why the question?

If one had to get out, and were to leave the engines/blades turning (for whatever reason, company SOP considered and such) would one be better off with the engine at idle instead of flight rpm? In the back of my mind, wind gusts and blade tip clearance might be an issue, among other things.

Hypothetical question, and not recommending leaving the blades turning with nobody guarding the controls since it was drilled into my head years ago that one simply doesn't do such things. I understand that in some circumstances, it is or has been.

Very sorry for the loss. :sad:

Lonewolf 50
The engine start sequence allows you to move the FFCL to an idle position and at that point the Ng is about 70% and the blades are turning. Once you are all squared away, radios humming,Navaids up, everyone board belted and doors secured etc. you move the lever to the flight gate. At this point, the rotor is considered to be at "full" flight RPM and in governed mode.In other words, you can pull pitch and fly.
To leave it unattended,one would consider leaving it at ground idle,frictions tightened down on the cyclic and the collective locked. The collective in the AS350 has a propensity to pop up.There is ,therefore, a down lock mechanism.Every time you lower the collective fully with the intention of shutting down or spending some time on ground, it is required that you positively lock the collective.
The AS350 has no stick trim mechanism and hence the only safeguards against such incidents are the collective lock and cyclic friction which are considered inadequate protection. So, most companies that I know of who operate the type, require that the pilot not leave the aircraft unattended,even at ground idle.Now ,I don't know what goes on in the bush.You may have to ask Bordeux Bob about that.
I have a sneaky suspicion that the collective ,in this case, may not have been positively locked down and popped up on the pilot while he was out.But, that is for the NTSB to find out.
Bottom line, young uns, if you are newly minted on the AS350 disregard folks like Bordeaux Bob's advice and stay inside the machine , if you intend to let it run.If you need to get out, shut her down. Five minutes is not a big loss of time ,especially when you consider the alternative of eternity.
Alt3.

I don't understand how one would 'check fluid levels' in a running helicopter. You cannot get a proper indication of any levels when it's running, although can visually check the fuel level in an AS350, fwiw.

TC I don't think that was called for, or appropriate regardless of the circumstances. A fellow pilot, a life lost and a terrible lesson or reminder, for us all to learn from.

You might do well to re-read the idea of hazardous attitudes, or at least accept that all of us remain susceptible to human behavior.

Condolences to the pilot, family and friends.

A3,

Where did I advise anyone to get out of the aircraft?

Your Reading Comprehension suffers it would appear.

I stated it was a routine practice in Bush Flying in the past.

I said if done, it should be done "Right".

Anything in error in those comments?

I also said some here with no experience in such kinds of flying were making comments that were very offensive and in extremely bad taste. That of course would require one to effectively comprehend what was being said.

You might spend some time explaining to folks all the interesting characteristics of the AS-350 or whatever they are called these days and enlighten the young ones on how many ways that machine can hurt them if they do not take care to study the Pilot's Notes on the thing.

Leaving a helicopter idling while a pilot is outside doing what need to be done while one is alone and far away from any civilisation is not a thing from the past but a reality in the Bush and in remote areas. The Aircraft model, AS350 or anything else is not really important as long as everything is done correctly, controls locked etc.
It's not fun when when you are stuck 200 miles from any civilisation and about a 1000 miles from any rescue (flying that is) because you shut it down at a fuel cache and the Darn thing won't start anymore and is in need of a new "igniter box". That's only one reasons, there are others. You use your head.
Now what and why this Pilot did it I don't know but he sure was not alone there. RIP.

That's not a really nice thing to say actually.

JD

'check fluid levels'
 

This is a polite way for the FAA to say the man had to drain his main vane!:D

You are probably right.

JD

fijdor is absolutely right. the only time the 350 has let me down is on the ground. however, there are lots of a/c working out of Las Vegas doing tours so help would not have been far away if required.

Jeebus H. Christ. Holy cow, some of you are dense. HE HAD TO PEE. He didn't want to do it in front of the pax that had just gotten out, so he moved the ship to someplace less "public." He got out. It rolled over on him.

Is this so difficult to imagine? Have none of you ever actually flown a helicopter other than in the training environment?

The NTSB very wisely refrained from saying whether it was the helicopter or the ground it was sitting on caused it to roll over. Guess what, Pap has those video recorder thingees installed in their birds which after review will tell us just what the pilot did...or didn't...do before hopping out.

In the meantime I would like to ask some of you helicopter experts a question: "What happens to your turbine helicopter when you are sitting there at IDLE and you pull up on the collective?"

Because while I cannot speak for your ship, in EVERY helicopter I've flown the rotor simply slows down. It does *not* cause the helicopter to get airborne. It just slows down. Because it's not governed, see?

After accidents like this, there are always the pompous, inexperienced know-it-alls who loudly proclaim how pilots should NEVER exit a running helicopter...harumph! Because that is what they've been taught. Or something.

But that's not reality.

Sometimes you have to do it. Sometimes you land the boss and his friends somewhere...some remote site (which is where helicopters go, right?), and you ask them all to just sit tight while you cool down your 206 for two-friggin'-minutes...and after about fifteen seconds all three doors pop open and they're getting out both sides. Because *they* have to pee, probably worse than you do. So you jump out to make sure they don't walk under the tail.

Hey, it happens.

Hey TC, I hope we don't have to ever Monday morning quarterback your fatal.

Your an asshole.

TC There was a time when you made good contributions to this forum and your acerbic style was funny.
That was a long time ago.
Now you're just nasty.
I'm really sorry you lost your medical and realize it must be frustrating but it's a pity it's made you so unpleasant.


Agaricus bosporus That nasty comment is typical of AB and can just be ignored.
AB is a self-styled expert on every type of flying and his attitude can be seen in many other forums on Pprune.



Even if this pilot did make a mistake he paid the ultimate price and deserves compassion from fellow pilots.
Very few if any pilots never make a mistake. Most of us live to tell the tale.

:= no reason for that comment.


In my remote operations sometimes I have to leave the controls to embark passengers and I see no problem with that, however, when I have to do it I make sure the helicopter is on Idle, Frictions ON and HYD OFF.

FH1100 Pilot
Because while I cannot speak for your ship, in EVERY helicopter I've flown the rotor simply slows down. It does *not* cause the helicopter to get airborne. It just slows down. Because it's not governed, see?

Not true for the AS350.If the engine is at idle and it is light, if the collective pops up, the aircraft will get airborne.Not climb to the dizzying heights but pop up and then when the rotor turns droop, gravity will take over.
There has been at least one fatal crash attributed to the collective popping up in the AS350 with rpms at idle.Killed three that time.
Alt3.

A single pilot might leave the cabin of a running helicopter for many reasons. The techniques to do so were routinely covered in the primary phase of the US Army when I taught there some 40+ years ago. Yes, the occasional training aircraft mishap occurred without crew at the controls. The most memorable was the solo student whose aircraft fell off a pinnacle, a second solo student landed, unaware, exited the aircraft, and then watched his aircraft fly away with the first student at the controls.

Some operators permit it, some don't, but it's not unusual that it be allowed here in the former colonies. My present employer currently allows AS350 drivers leaving the controls in certain conditions: stable on the deck; ground idle; collective down and locked (never had the collective rise with full hydraulics, but have seen some cyclic motoring); and cyclic friction firmly set; autopilot off. I don't think an Astar would lift at ground idle without a pretty stiff breeze (Edit- Alouette3 posting shows me in error). But inadequate cyclic friction, motoring and/or an unlocked collective might generate enough force at flight idle to unsettle the aircraft, perhaps lift it, and what scares me most- tip the disk presenting a hazard even if the aircraft itself doesn't move.

I've never flown for Papillion and don't fly AS350B3 or left hand pilot seat. Does the B3 normally shutdown from flight idle? That might accustom pilots to ground ops with full NR. Is the collective lock less positive than other 350 types? The collective lock on a left-hander would be in a high traffic area.

Now Thomas coupling.....if there was ever a candidate for bottom of the gene pool, your knuckle dragging, low brow comment puts you at the head if the pack.....loser.

Surely a bit of poor risk/reward analysis in this sad case - it may be essential in very remote bush ops not to shut down the rotor but the Grand Canyon operation hardly qualifies for that does it?

An 'accepted' practice on other types, this is clearly a much more risky thing to do on a 350 (as A3 has highlighted) and was there really a need to do this, just to have a piss, when it would have taken only an extra minute to shut down the head and leave the engine at ground idle or even shut down completely?

Well done TC, you have been reading that 'win friends and influence people' book again;)